For those of you who want your husband to have the final say in all decisions, do you also want him to be able to take a second wife if he wants to? That's also in the Torah.
Discuss amongst yourselves.
This should be good for a few more pages.
The cherem may have expired but no one's acting on it. And I don't think it's just because of dina d'malchusa dina.
Come on. Go with it. Bigamy/Polygamy should be good for at least five more pages.
For those of you who want your husband to have the final say in all decisions, do you also want him to be able to take a second wife if he wants to? That's also in the Torah.
Discuss amongst yourselves.
This should be good for a few more pages.
The cherem may have expired but no one's acting on it. And I don't think it's just because of dina d'malchusa dina.
Come on. Go with it. Bigamy/Polygamy should be good for at least five more pages.
For those of you who want your husband to have the final say in all decisions, do you also want him to be able to take a second wife if he wants to? That's also in the Torah.
Discuss amongst yourselves.
This should be good for a few more pages.
The cherem may have expired but no one's acting on it. And I don't think it's just because of dina d'malchusa dina.
Come on. Go with it. Bigamy/Polygamy should be good for at least five more pages.
Nah. Don't you remember that I was told that my whole notion of having an equal say in matters has emasculated my husband, esp in the bedroom? What would he do with another wife?
pickle lady, what do u mean- men are emasculated in the bedroom?
let me assure u that although we have a bunch of ladies who post here with their bedroom problems, the majority of women are NOT posting about their bedroom problems, because there arent any problems to post about
dont use the Intimacy section of Imamother to form the opinion that men are emasculated in the bedroom
what does that even mean- emasculated in the bedroom? that the wife removes her husband's man-parts with a scissors? that she encourages him to undergo an at-home in-bedroom gender-change operation?
Who says people are equal? Equality is sort of a false word.
But my husband does not have AUTHORITY over me. We are partners. He does not have the final say and neither do I.
Can you please explain to me the importance of a halachic will?
If you didn't decide to forego spousal support in favor of keeping the money you earn, he would have both authority and final say in finances, if nothing else.
Here's a brief explanation of halachic will- you can read the first couple of paragraphs for the basics.
Sorry, I used the wrong term. I wasn't talking about that kind of halachic will. I meant the way wills were originally handled (double to the bechor etc).
I don't know much about bechor vs younger sons. I was bringing up wills with regard to allowances made for wives and daughters, who are not considered heirs according to halacha.
I don't know anyone nowadays that writes their spouse or daughters out of a will (or rather, just leaves their assets to their sons). IMO, its not applicable nowadays really and I would never do that to my daughter. Times are different and finances are handled differently.
As I understand it, the issue is not about writing people out of a will. Rather, according to halacha, women are not heirs, even if the secular will names them as such. To get around this, a Halachic will creates a debt to selected female members of the family, which goes into effect one minute before the death. So whoever is considered an heir according to halacha is required to ultimately share the inheritance by way of paying back the debts he inherited. It is absolutely applicable today, and all frum people are encouraged to do it this way. When in doubt, CYLOR.
No, I understand halachic wills. I thought you meant (originally) that it was important to maintain the original method of transfering money (only to sons, double to bechor).
The question is, why was a change in will structure necessary? The Rabbis came up with a a halachic will that allows women to inherit? Why? Because times changed. Financial structure of the family changed. Family dynamics changed.
Saw why do you keep bringing up dictator? A head of the household is not a dictator by any means.
A dictator decides and either can listen or not listen to anyone else.
A head of the household as such MUST listen to his wife's needs and those of the other household members.
You really have no idea what a head of the household is.
There is no such thing as two equal partners. Because when there is a decision to be made you can't make it unless you have THREE equal partners. Otherwise you may end up with a 50% - 50% and that's no decision. Sure you can say that in a marriage there are three partners, Mommy, Daddy and Hashem. But Hashem, in his torah, has already made the man the top partner in almost everything hence it's always going to be two against one by definition even if man and women are partners because you cant take HASHEM, meaning torah out of the equation if you are frum.
And according to torah, the man decides about everything other than the nichsei tzon barzel that his wife brings into the marriage, and she must according to torah, go along with his decisions except if he decides something that is AGAINST halocho in which case of course she should not listen.
So either you are frum or you are two equal partners. Because if you are frum then you are THREE partners, like in haveing a baby, as marriage is a sacrament or if you prefer, a financial contract (kesuba) in which a man is given rights over all his wife's possessions, her earnings, and household decisions.
And as for emasculating, you know, men like to be men. Otherwise they are nekeivahs. Which is why every morning a man davens to Hashem to bless him for NOT MAKING HIM A WOMAN. Think about it. Does your husband say that brocho every morning? Ask him why if you are equal partners in everything. What's wrong with being a woman if you are equal partners. Only in the torah world, you aren't, no matter how many times you say you are and act daily as if you are.
Why do I bring up dictator? Because if the man has final say (even after listening to his wife's wants) then he is a dictator. Even if he chooses not to levy his power, he has it. I won't be in a relationship like that.
Please tell me where in the Torah it says men get to decide everything. I still haven't seen it - even the pasuk in Bereishis is up to debate. As is just about every halacha in the Torah, so what you hold by is probably not what I do.
I'm also not sure why you can't understand an equal partnership. It doesn't mean I make 50% of decisions or DH does. It means the person who feels stronger or is more knowledgeable usually makes the decision. And if we both butt heads, one of us will relent, but its not the same every time. We balance our own wants and needs with that of the family.
I'm not sure why that's emasculating. Or why my husband would want to be a woman. After seeing me through 3 pregnancies, I can assure you he does NOT want to be a woman. Why does making a decision make a man "masculine"? My husband wants what is best for his family, not the kavod or authority.
Does that make me not frum? Well, I'll gladly grab that title and just say I'm observant.
For those of you who want your husband to have the final say in all decisions, do you also want him to be able to take a second wife if he wants to? That's also in the Torah.
Discuss amongst yourselves.
This should be good for a few more pages.
The cherem may have expired but no one's acting on it. And I don't think it's just because of dina d'malchusa dina.
Come on. Go with it. Bigamy/Polygamy should be good for at least five more pages.
Nah. Don't you remember that I was told that my whole notion of having an equal say in matters has emasculated my husband, esp in the bedroom? What would he do with another wife?
Well, if a man has two wives, there is FS trifecta! Of course that makes the man powerless LOL.
I have been gone for over a week and thought this thread would have died but no. This has got to be the longest thread on imamother thus far. Can someone cath me up:-)
Who says people are equal? Equality is sort of a false word.
But my husband does not have AUTHORITY over me. We are partners. He does not have the final say and neither do I.
Can you please explain to me the importance of a halachic will?
If you didn't decide to forego spousal support in favor of keeping the money you earn, he would have both authority and final say in finances, if nothing else.
Here's a brief explanation of halachic will- you can read the first couple of paragraphs for the basics.
Sorry, I used the wrong term. I wasn't talking about that kind of halachic will. I meant the way wills were originally handled (double to the bechor etc).
I don't know much about bechor vs younger sons. I was bringing up wills with regard to allowances made for wives and daughters, who are not considered heirs according to halacha.
I don't know anyone nowadays that writes their spouse or daughters out of a will (or rather, just leaves their assets to their sons). IMO, its not applicable nowadays really and I would never do that to my daughter. Times are different and finances are handled differently.
As I understand it, the issue is not about writing people out of a will. Rather, according to halacha, women are not heirs, even if the secular will names them as such. To get around this, a Halachic will creates a debt to selected female members of the family, which goes into effect one minute before the death. So whoever is considered an heir according to halacha is required to ultimately share the inheritance by way of paying back the debts he inherited. It is absolutely applicable today, and all frum people are encouraged to do it this way. When in doubt, CYLOR.
No, I understand halachic wills. I thought you meant (originally) that it was important to maintain the original method of transfering money (only to sons, double to bechor).
The question is, why was a change in will structure necessary? The Rabbis came up with a a halachic will that allows women to inherit? Why? Because times changed. Financial structure of the family changed. Family dynamics changed.
Actually, the Rama brought down the legalities of a halachic will. Jews have been using it for centuries. Based on your posts, I don't think you would be happy with family dynamics and financial structure as they were in the time of the Rama
I have been gone for over a week and thought this thread would have died but no. This has got to be the longest thread on imamother thus far. Can someone cath me up:-)
Wanting to be equal partners with your dh emasculates him and the Torah says that husbands should be the heads of their households and have the final say.
The Rema is relatively recent in Jewish history. I wasn't aware it went back that far (I thought it was closer to the 1700-1800s but I stand corrected).
I think the traditional inheritence structure worked better in farm society.
But no, I am glad I didn't live during the times of Rema and not just because of inheritence laws. :-D
The Rema is relatively recent in Jewish history. I wasn't aware it went back that far (I thought it was closer to the 1700-1800s but I stand corrected).
I think the traditional inheritence structure worked better in farm society.
But no, I am glad I didn't live during the times of Rema and not just because of inheritence laws. :-D
I figured as much lol. Anyway, our gedolim are responsible for ensuring that the Torah can be kept by each generation. That means ammending halacha as needed based on their vast knowledge. But I, mabellevie, can't decide that I can sit in my husbands chair even if he doesn't allow it, just because I don't think that law is applicable in 2011. Sometimes it sucks, but c'est la vie d'un juif.
I have been gone for over a week and thought this thread would have died but no. This has got to be the longest thread on imamother thus far. Can someone cath me up:-)
Wanting to be equal partners with your dh emasculates him and the Torah says that husbands should be the heads of their households and have the final say.
Are you serious?!?! How did it evolve to this? Never mind, what you wrote is bizarre enough as it is! From your eye rolling emoticons, I assume you agree that its ridiculous.
I have been gone for over a week and thought this thread would have died but no. This has got to be the longest thread on imamother thus far. Can someone cath me up:-)
Wanting to be equal partners with your dh emasculates him and the Torah says that husbands should be the heads of their households and have the final say.
Are you serious?!?! How did it evolve to this? Never mind, what you wrote is bizarre enough as it is! From your eye rolling emoticons, I assume you agree that its ridiculous.
Because it is the thread that never ends, and it goes on and on my friends.
You know? Reading this stuff I have a feeling that I am in practice 100 times more "emancipated" than most of you, and that you really truly have no idea what I am talking about when I say "husband is head of the Toradik household". Anyone talking "boss" or "dictator" or even the whif of it has no idea what I mean by head, and what I mean by Toradik.
First some definitions. Anyone who acts as a dictator is not living in a Torahdik household. Period. Because a man is commanded to respect his wife and care for her more than for his own body. Any man not taking super serious consideration of his wifes wishes is being "over" that.
Second, although I am far from being Chassidish, let me take a leaf out of the Chassidic book. When the Rebbe of Szert-Vizhnitz haifa was niftar many years ago, his son was approached that he will now be the next rebbe. This son had never been interested in rabbonus, he studed to be an electrician or something to make a living, this was the 1950s or early 60s, chassidus was not exactly at its height and Szert-Vizhnitz was a very small break-away chassidus from Vizhnitz in Bnai Brak. So the gabboim came to this son and he threw up his hands in dispair. "Rebbe??? You want me to be a Rebbe?? But I'm an electrician. I know electricity..I never wanted to be a Rebbe, my father didnt' train me to be a Rebbe, I have no idea what a rebbe needs to do!!!"
And the gabboim looked at this yinger man and said, "You know what a rebbe needs? He needs only one thing to be a rebbe. He needs Ch'siddim. Because you aren't a rebbe without Ch'siddim. (Imagine the inflection, this was told to me by one of the gaboim who had been there). We will teach you how to be a rebbe, don't worry, all you have to do is listen to your ch'siddim".
Same here. To be a "head of a household" you need one thing. A Household. And to listen to your household. Traditionally in charedi and especially chassidish families a woman is referred to as a "home". My shteib, as my chassidish friends are referred to by their husbands. WE are the household and a head of the household, in order to BE the head of the household, has to listen to the household.
No dictatorship here, but also no lip service. No boss and underling and no one is "subservient" in the temporal sense but in the formal sense only. There is no "equality". There are things in which a wife is so much above her husband that even if he would grow wings and fly he couldn't reach where she is. But as a woman takes care, again usually, traditionally, practically, whatever you want to call it, of SO MUCH of what is going on in the family, SO MUCH MORE than most men do (simply because WE have the babies, WE nurse them, they usually come first to MOMMY to ask things, WE decide on the fabric of daily life that everyone's life is made of. WE made the menus WE say what purchases are needed for the house WE clothe and WE feed and the kids naturally come to US simply because we are mommy, and there is a bond between mommy and those that came out of her body that cant compare to anything including their bond to DADDY.
Hence the idea of making a man the head of the household, the torah way is basically compensation for the fact that, as so many of you wrote, in practice the woman is "the boss".
Besides, I know that all of you out there except me are too aidel to have ever even held a copy of women's romance literature (AKA soft core [filth]) in your delicate hands....but the recurring theme is the strong and smart man who woos and conquers his maiden. Why is it in those of you who hold that there is a "recommended position" it's always that the MAN is on top? Does that mean that he owns you?
And for those of us who hold that anything (kosher) goes, the business about emasculating a man in the bedroom is nothing to sneeze at. And I'm saying this now as a therapist and not as your friend Freidasima. You can't imagine how much of it starts and ends there even if you as a couple are spending less than half an hour in a 24 hour period awake in that room.
And as for Polygamy, if my poor zaddik of a husband has enough koyach for two??? Geh Gezint. He barely has enough koyach for me. Besides, if she is younger she can help with the housework and then the grandchildren will have more little kids to play with. It will be crowded in the apartment, but we will survive. Harems anyone?
I like my kitchen sinks, unless they are full of dishes. I have a sprayer on my pareve sink and it is wonderful B"H. It would be nice to have sprayers on my other two sinks as well.
When we lived in chu"l we only had one sink. Now that was hard! We had dish pans and had to use them for draining spaghetti as well as washing dishes.
The Rema is relatively recent in Jewish history. I wasn't aware it went back that far (I thought it was closer to the 1700-1800s but I stand corrected).
I think the traditional inheritence structure worked better in farm society.
But no, I am glad I didn't live during the times of Rema and not just because of inheritence laws. :-D
I figured as much lol. Anyway, our gedolim are responsible for ensuring that the Torah can be kept by each generation. That means ammending halacha as needed based on their vast knowledge. But I, mabellevie, can't decide that I can sit in my husbands chair even if he doesn't allow it, just because I don't think that law is applicable in 2011. Sometimes it sucks, but c'est la vie d'un juif.
I don't think the law is applicable in 2011. And honestly, if I heard someone's husband was territorial about the "respect" due to his chair, I would laugh in his face. My husband has his usual seat, but I sit there sometimes too. I don't think I would ever live in a marriage where a man "controls" his seat.
FS, you miss the point. If the man is allowed the final say and has the power to make that decision, he is a dictator. There are no checks and balances to play that off. Even if he always ends up choosing what you want. The power is there - I don't need a power play in my marriage. We need to balance the decisions with what is best for all of us, not just what my husband decides is best for all of us.
Saw, someone always has to have the final say in a dispute that involved both people or an entire family. There are situations where everyone just can't do what they want, there has to be a decision.
How is that decision made? By whom? Who announces it to the family if it involves everyone? Who takes final responsibility for that decision, meaning with whom does the buck stop, particularly when there is a disagreement between husband and wife over it?
You can say that one time it's the husband and the other time it's the wife, but that's about vochadik stuff. What if we are talking subjects that are mandated as the husband's responsibility, and authority by the torah meaning by chazal and all rishonim and achronim? A frum man can decide to relinquish his responsibility on that subject and give it to his wife, but that is HIS decision because the torah mandate is HIS. A perfect example is chinuch of boys. That is mandated that it is a father's sphere. A second one is money that is earned during marriage. Again, by torah that all belongs to a husband. Only nichsei tzon barzel and its derivatives (such as if a woman comes into marriage with a stock portfolio - that's a nichsei tzon barzel and its derivatives and earnings are hers). But with jointly earned money? No way around it, the torah mandates that it belongs to the husband. That hasn't changed and any woman going to a beisdin will have to face that as an axiom. There is therefore no "alimony" in yiddishkeit other than what is mandated in a kesuba. There IS child support and a good divorce lawyer can move things around in a beisdin so that instead of mezonos (alimony) that is paid as part of "achzakas yiladim" (child support).
But halochically, ladies be careful when you marry and make sure that you are cared for through your kesuba.
It's all education. That's where it stops and thats where it starts. Women should know how to take care of themselves (and of their families) and what their responsibilities are. Men should know how to take care of themselves (and of their families) and what their responsibilities are. Both should learn to be menschen. But psychology plays a large role here. The western world in which we all live had set up a system which most of us still live by, that by and large the man is responsible for his family. Women can work but a woman who is the main or sole breadwinner of a family with both a husband and a wife is usually not considered the normative way. It can be temporary when a man is home caring for kids while studying something or working from home, that's working. But a situation where a wife is the breadwinner while the man is healthy and able and not spending his days learning torah? Sorry, with all feminism, it's not normative.
Why? Because basically from 12 to 50 (or more) we are under different physical stress than men are. It's biology. Hormones etc. That doesn't make us weepy that doesn't make us stupid and in some things we are psychologically or emotionally stronger. But we are subject to things which men are not and it takes its toll. No wonder that 90% of the autoimmune illnesses are borne by women and not men. and we can go on ad nauseum.
That's why, feminism or not, the norm is still that the man is the main person responsible for his family. Because in general he is stronger, and not subject to the physical stresses that women go through daily and biologically. Birth, pregnancy, nursing, etc.
If you don't want your husband to have final say in a whole bunch of things, then come to an agreement with him on the one to one level. That's fine. But halochically, you can't get around the fact that it is mandated that men are responsible and final say in many fields in life. Including finances. And we all know that the bottom line of feminism is money - equal pay for equal work was only part of it.
Which, BTW, is why any responsible mother will make sure that her daughters have a "knipple" when they get married. Money of their own, nichsei tzon barzel, that doesn't go into marriage and that the husband won't even know about. It may save her marriage one day, or even her life. Be smart. That's where it begins and that's where it ends.
The Rema is relatively recent in Jewish history. I wasn't aware it went back that far (I thought it was closer to the 1700-1800s but I stand corrected).
I think the traditional inheritence structure worked better in farm society.
But no, I am glad I didn't live during the times of Rema and not just because of inheritence laws. :-D
I figured as much lol. Anyway, our gedolim are responsible for ensuring that the Torah can be kept by each generation. That means ammending halacha as needed based on their vast knowledge. But I, mabellevie, can't decide that I can sit in my husbands chair even if he doesn't allow it, just because I don't think that law is applicable in 2011. Sometimes it sucks, but c'est la vie d'un juif.
I don't think the law is applicable in 2011. And honestly, if I heard someone's husband was territorial about the "respect" due to his chair, I would laugh in his face. My husband has his usual seat, but I sit there sometimes too. I don't think I would ever live in a marriage where a man "controls" his seat.
FS, you miss the point. If the man is allowed the final say and has the power to make that decision, he is a dictator. There are no checks and balances to play that off. Even if he always ends up choosing what you want. The power is there - I don't need a power play in my marriage. We need to balance the decisions with what is best for all of us, not just what my husband decides is best for all of us.
I honestly don't know if you're intentionally missing the point or not. I (and fs, I think) am not talking about a man enforcing or being territorial about anything. As far as he's concerned, his wife is the greatest person in the world, she is the best wife and mother, and he loves and respects her to no end. Imagine a perfect husband. Still, that does not take away from his wife's obligation to treat him with respect AS HALACHA DICTATES.
I don't know if you regularly dismiss other halachot, but to me, this is no different (the halacha, btw, is that a woman may not sit in her husbands designated seat without permission. One time permission may be granted for the duration of their marriage). These laws are comparable to kibud av vaeim, many of which may seem out of place in our time, but which are required nonetheless. I don't give a flying hoot what society is doing to marriage, except to point out that they are obviously doing something very wrong if you look at the state of marriage in the US. I do care how the Torah views marriage, and that's what I strive for. Some of the dynamics have changed with the times, and that's ok, but the underlying balance has not. I do believe it is mutually beneficial.
