For that I would say one has to define what "frum life" and "zedoko" are.
Because for one person a frum life is wearing only a sheitl which by anyone's account whether we are talking a paula young or a $6000 custom, still costs more than a kerchief that can cover all of one's hair. And for another a frum life means having one's own lulav and esrog while by din another person will say you don't have to own your own if you can't afford it.
What one frum person will call zedoko, another equally frum person might say is parasitism because according to one person's view that zedoko is going for a necessity while another person might say that is is enabling what they were taught is a very non-Jewish way of life that is based milechaschila on planning for a life supported partially or entirely by alms.
So it's all where you are coming from. The problem is when the two groups interface and meet. Such as in asking for charity. And at a second stage when members of one group use religious argumentation and beratement (is there such a word?) to try and shame members of the other group to contribute to something that is against their interpretation of what yiddishkeit is.
So it's not so simple.
Very few things are that absolute.
I hardly think what you posted is relevant, Freidasima. Just like if I had plans for your lifestyle, you'd roll your eyes too.
No need to suggest that the difference is that your group survives without tzedaka while mine doesn't. Religion isn't about money and if it were, it wouldn't be worth much. I certainly wouldn't choose a religion based on how expensive it is to live that way.
And let's be very clear about this and not pretend that only those who have afforded life are tzedaka-givers. People in my crowd on their last penny have easily given it away to a more desperate person.
So we've come full circle again and this time I have a different conclusion.
Frum life is a choice and so is giving tzedaka. Except one is a much more loftier choice than the other. Can you guess which one?
You'd think the obvious answer would be frum life, but surprise, surprise.
For the most part, frum life is NOT much more expensive. Unless you choose to eat expensive food, live only in expensive neighborhoods (there are minyanim in cheaper areas you know), buy expensive sheitels/clothing/jewelry/shoes.
Tzedaka reliance has BECOME the answer, but it shouldn't be.
I give as much to tzedaka funds as I can, but will not give to send a SAHM's child to camp (special situations/needs nonwithstanding). That's not tzedaka, that's enabling.
you can choose not to wear a sheitel or skirts, not to keep strict hechsherim, not to send to Jewish schools, not live amongst other Jews.
And that may be your definition of a frum Jewish life. Your choice. To say that should be everyone's definition is no less obnoxious or annoying or disrespectful than me telling you G-d says you must wear a sheitel every day even while sleeping.
Gryp, talking about irrelevant answers to comments!
You are really projecting your own peeves and bogeymen here as no one anywhere has written anything like what you are saying.
No one said that anyone should completly adopt anyone elses lifestyle.
No one said that a person should choose a religion based on how expensive it is to live that way
And no one said that only those who have "afforded life" (what in the world does that mean? people who live acording to their means? People who try to plan out at least milechaschila not to live off zedoko?) give zedoko.
So why are you trying to portray it as if someone here wrote that?
you can choose not to wear a sheitel or skirts, not to keep strict hechsherim, not to send to Jewish schools, not live amongst other Jews.
And that may be your definition of a frum Jewish life. Your choice. To say that should be everyone's definition is no less obnoxious or annoying or disrespectful than me telling you G-d says you must wear a sheitel every day even while sleeping.
Please.
Skirts are not really more expensive than pants. At all. I don't shop in Jewish stores and have no problem finding clothing. I also don't own that much clothing. So if someone says they can't afford to dress tzanua because they need 14 new outfits a year, then that's not a Judaism problem, that's a personal problem.
If someone says they need a sheitel for their shittah, they can get a cheaper sheitel. They don't need a super expensive custom one. Or they can buy a used sheitel (I know people who have done this very successfully and had great sheitels that lasted a long time for a fraction of the price).
And there are plenty of places where housing in frum communities isn't as prohibitive. So move someplace cheaper, rather than blaming it on Judaism.
Yeshiva is a sticking point, mainly because we've made it into an "everyone needs to go" - but there are cheaper options, even if they aren't comfortable. I would leave this on the side though and almost own up to the "neccesity" of tuition. Even though I disagree with it.
I'm not defining a person's shittah. But blaming those factors on Judaism is NOT right.
I didn't realize choosing to live off of tzedaka is a "shittah" though.
Saw, all of us living here have already figured that out. We don't have below average intelligence. Yet, we still choose to live this way because that makes the most sense. You don't need to understand it or agree with it. You don't need to empty your pockets in Brooklyn. You may want to realize that people who choose differently than you aren't working any less hard than you are even if they still need to take tzedaka, and they deserve the same level of respect as you do.
you can choose not to wear a sheitel or skirts, not to keep strict hechsherim, not to send to Jewish schools, not live amongst other Jews.
And that may be your definition of a frum Jewish life. Your choice. To say that should be everyone's definition is no less obnoxious or annoying or disrespectful than me telling you G-d says you must wear a sheitel every day even while sleeping.
I agree with saw. Why is it more expensive to live according to halacha? (Note: I say according to halacha, not a popular Jewish American lifestyle). It is not more expensive - it is reprioritizing. Spending the money you HAVE on Torah and mitzvos rather than wasting it on nonsense.
Like saw, the only NEED listed here is a Jewish education - but we are promised the money back we spend on Talmud Torah, so I can't even count that.
You can buy/obtain/sew a skirt just like you can buy/obtain/sew a pair of pants. A sheitel? Go to a gemach or buy a cheap version. You think non jews don't need to buy clothes too?
Strict hechsherim? Well grains, fruits and veggies don't need a hechsher at all except in EY where you can at least buy grains and veggies anywhere and maaser them yourself. I don't see the mehadrin excellent hechsherim costing any more here than anything else, except for fleishigs - so just don't buy or buy less. The only exception would be Pesach where matzas are very expensive and other foods are limited. Eat lots of potatoes.
Living among Jews? there are lots of communities in EY with yeshivas and (free) BYs and shuls and mikvas and kolelim with relatively cheap housing.
I didn't see anyone (not even FS) suggesting that people shouldn't be doing anything that is halacha for money. Except limiting their family size. But, as I said, you can understand all the rest of her argument and skip that point.
I give as much to tzedaka funds as I can, but will not give to send a SAHM's child to camp (special situations/needs nonwithstanding). That's not tzedaka, that's enabling.
That pretty much sums up what I think.
And I too cannot unravel how your responses, gryp, are connected to what is being said.
On the topic of tzedaka and enabling, today I said no to a woman standing on a corner begging for change to take a bus to another city. It appeared to me that she made a habit of doing this. But I could be wrong, and I feel guilty. I always feel guilty.
I was buying school uniforms and school supplies and thinking about buying school books, and entertaining my kids for the rest of the summer which also costs, and I felt that this request was out of place.
Regarding teens working in camps, we used to. But with my own kids, I found that camps expect parents to pay for their kids to be campers till much older ages. Staff is only quite older teens.
After all these eighty-something pages the conclusion is that everyone around the world doesn't think camp is absolutely pikuach nefesh except for chassidim in Brooklyn.
I think the conclusion is (and I mentioned it many pages ago) is that in some communities, daycamp is the norm, the default. Its sort of a continuation of school, with a one week break before and after. EVERYONE sends their kids to daycamp, it is not optional. The question "ARE you sending your kids to daycamp?" is never asked there. Those who are struggling financially, get a break just like they do for tuition. When and why this became the norm I dont know, but there was obviously a reason for it.
If there are enough people for whom sending to daycamp is not a financial reality, is there any chance that such a community, if it can not fund such a camp on its own with communal funds, would actually stop and examine this "necessity" in order to see whether certain standards should be changed?
Because that is the nature of communities that I know of, and have known in the past. When there is a community of 100 families and two can't afford something the community would usually band together and pay for those two. It's done here in Bnai Akiva all the time when it comes to various things, also in schools. The "robin hood" system where the school or the movement charges those who CAN afford to pay a tiny drop more and that tiny drop for 98 families is used to pay for the other two who can't afford it.
You get the picture.
But here we are talking about communities which seem to be struggling, in very bad economic times, and where are the leaders when there are growing numbers of families that to keep up with "communal practice" or "communal standards" have to go begging outside the community for the money to pay for it? Why aren't the leaders looking to change some of these standards?
So we've come full circle again and this time I have a different conclusion.
Frum life is a choice and so is giving tzedaka. Except one is a much more loftier choice than the other. Can you guess which one?
You'd think the obvious answer would be frum life, but surprise, surprise.
For the most part, frum life is NOT much more expensive. Unless you choose to eat expensive food, live only in expensive neighborhoods (there are minyanim in cheaper areas you know), buy expensive sheitels/clothing/jewelry/shoes.
We live fairly frugally, in a very un-tony zip, trust me. But what can we do. We eat chicken and ground meat (actually turkey, its cheaper) stretched as far as we can, but we do like fleishig sometimes. And I won't homeschool. Tuition here isn't like say Teaneck or wherever but sorry, it's still a sizable chunk. Someone from the tuition committee actually told us how much people there respect us for committing to paying as much as we do.
If you're making in the upper $$,$$$ or even lower 6 figures, it's not easy making ends meet.
We asked our shailos, were given the answers we got....which of our children should we put up for adoption??
The discussion kind of took another direction (not shockingly ) but I will answer the questions I was asked.
I agree that if there were enough "regular" teens that stayed in the city then camp would be less of a necessity. I was specifically speaking about teens that are at risk or where an positive ruchnius and gashmius immersion program would benefit them then I would contribute. I do believe it is better for children to be in a structured environment for a chunk of the summer but that is IDEAL. When one cannot afford the ideal, they need to re-prioritize and make choices accordingly. I really wish the summer was shorter, it is way too long, and the kids don't need that much time. Unless of course the intent is to forget everything they learned the year before (in which case, it is pretty successful unfortunately).
The teens I am talking about are working or spending time with their family for 6 weeks out of 10 and they are 14-15 years old. I am not chassidish so no they will not be expected to marry in 3 years. More likely 5 -7 years, after which they have had a job or went to school for a few years.
I do not understand the chassidish way of marrying off kids very young and then still "mommying" them for the next couple of years but that is what's done. Maybe start a new thread addressing that point.
side point- living an EQUAL life(style) to a not frum Jew is more expensive, aside for tuition which is obvious. But we chose to live this way. We exchange gashmius pleasures/conveniences for the spiritual lifestyle of a frum jew.
Saw a lot of siyata dishmaya today. In ONE day, I managed to buy school uniforms (tzanua ones definitely a davar haavud in these parts so I can buy in the 3 weeks), most school supplies, search the house for school books on the kids' lists, and fax an order in to the bookstore. AND take DS for a Speech eval in Herzliya. AND buy the kids at home bagels and a large salad to share, for staying home and davening and cleaning up.
The problem with DS is that he innocently tries to outsmart the evals, making them wonder about his abilities. With Hearing, instead of simply placing a piece on the puzzle when he heard a word, he attempted to actually put together the complicated puzzle. With Speech, rather than repeat strings of words, he picked out the word that seemed "not like the others" and repeated only that. He was a lot more interested in the system the evaluator was using to chart his responses, and in her computer, than in the questions he was asked. I was told he is getting 3 PT sessions (to teach pencil holding) and some Speech (mainly for Ivrit vocabulary enrichment).
DD has to decide about doing the special needs Ezer Mitzion camp - she kind of got accepted by accident, or hashgacha pratis if she decides that's what it must be. She was with friends when they went to be interviewed, and somehow also got called in, and accepted. She laughs, because she had a few experiences where she wasn't looking for a hard job such as with a child with special needs, and it just landed in her lap. I told her that Camp Mishkon was hard, but an invaluable life experience for me. She has to be the one to decide on her plans.
Trying to meet my friend who lives in Kiryat Sefer this week in Yerushalayim with our kids - maybe at Park Sanhedria, since her bus gets her there.
Might go to a good friend in Tzfat next week with a few kids.
Gotta keep these kids busy in their chofesh...
(Did laundry - a lot.)
(Emptied dishwasher from Shabbos dishes. Washed rest of Shabbos dishes.)
(Soaked cholent pot in hot water, dishwashing fluid and baking soda.)
(Mailed replacement for unsigned check.)
(Watered Daddy's plants.)
(Went on Imamother.)
Chassidim, not just in Brooklyn, prioritize chinuch over every thing else in their life. They would forgo living in a more affordable Jewish neighborhood if it would mean not having the kind of chinuch institutions that coincide with their values. And even within their neighborhoods, they would choose the more expensive chinuch institutions even if there are cheaper options locally, not for academic purposes, only for their value purposes. Insularity, mesorah, chassidus mean a lot to chassidim, and they will not compromise on any of it. If parents can't afford the kind of chinuch they want for their kids, they will not look for a cheaper chinuch. They will humbly ask for tuition breaks, or ask for tzedaks. And who will reach out to them? Their chassidishe peers. Who also believe in this cause.
So what's the whole 88 pages all about? If the rich chassidim, who are in power, gladly help their chassidish bretheren, because they believe in that rather than in amending the system, what's the problem?
If any of you imamothers feel this cause isn't on your preferred list, that's ok. I don't recall the last fundraising event for a chassidishe institution in a MO neighborhood. We basically work it out between ourselves.
) but I will answer the questions I was asked.
