Right. You finally got it. We aren't interested in chinuch. It is number 17 on our list, way down after dressing our kids up beautifully before stepping outside with them, owning expensive jewellery, going on vacation etc. It's really beautiful there is still part of Am Yisrael who prioritize chinuch - unlike Litvish, MO et al who don't really think it's so important.
After this, I've got a Pink Floyd earworm (We don't need no education.....)
BTW, kitov, your Super-Organic Certification plaque was mistakenly delivered to mi casa instead of yours. Should I bring it over with the five bushels of hand-milled spelt? (We have separate grain mills in our 'hood for gluten and non-gluten flours. This allows us to spend more time on matchy-matchy outfits)
Signed, MO OOT Rachel who actually conquered Mount Washmore yesterday! Yee-hah!
oh, boy. Thanks for the laugh. I could just hear that Yee-hah!
Of course, the only reason you had time to go mountain climbing (or do laundry washing) was because you're not out buying matchy-matchy outfits or working to pay tuition. Or homeschooling. Ummm. Whatever.
It's very common here that if you have a messy eater, whether at a table or at a high chair, that you put large disposable plastic thin see through tablecloth that costs pennies, (or even cheaper, use newspapers) on the floor when they eat and take them up after to be recycled. Especailly if you know you are going to have guests.
MB you seem to take everything as a personal insult which it is not. It's just that you aren't the only mother with your issues, and kids like yours and others have found methods which are time savers and energy savers, like the one I just mentioned above.
But you seem to be busy wanting to prove that you are being persecuted by me and others to even think whether any of our suggestions might be applicable.
Here's another one. It really IS possible not to leave any food, of any kind in the reach of children. There are locks for cabinets, for fridges and boxes for loose food (like the mints you mention which if they are hard candies, are a sakonas nefoshos anyhow for kids under 5, aren't they?) that are too hard for little fingers to open. Your kids aren't Harry Houdini, and they don't have the strength of a fifteen year old which is what is needed to open some of these boxes. Saves on the mess when you are in the shower. They are available at many stores all over NY, I got one for my office last time I was there. It is usually possible to put things out of reach of children and to teach them over and over and over that certain things are not allowed. It requires time, patience and discipline and even children with lots of learning problems, health problems and emotional problems, if they are not super low IQ children (we are talking in the 30s and 40s here), can get. But it requires reinforcement.
And...as Saw said, paper towels and fantasitc (or around here a shmatte and a spray bottle of water and soap) do wonders for a 30 second cleanup. As a mother of five, including two lively boys, I have been known in my day to do it many times in a day. Takes 30 seconds or less each time. Just as Saw said.
Mama Bear, I hope you've clicked on that "Ignore" button. No need to care about what others think about your kitchen floor. If you think it needs to be cleaned 6 times in one day, you're an adult and can think for yourself. Obviously, if it got dirty 6 times in one day, it needs to be cleaned that many times. I vacuum my carpeted lr/dr more than 6 times a day, if that makes you feel better. And wash the table and 6 chairs after every snack/meal.
Enjoy your new kitchen floor.
Last edited by gryp on Mon, Jul 25 2011, 9:58 am; edited 1 time in total
I wonder if an appeal can be made the various rebbies for similar takanot making camp more affordable.
Iirc, the summer that the (Lub) Rebbe said that every child should go to camp, the local day camps took a LOT of kids for free. The thing was, they didn't have any money to do anything with the kids. Buses and food came from the city and they went to the park a lot, but I remember that it wasn't a great summer; it wasn't that much fun anyway.
I haven't checked with number on their list the MO put their chinuh on, but when we keep on hearing "so choose a cheaper school", or "go live in a cheaper community", well, that's implying something.
Cheaper chinuch, less chassidish community? Sorry, that is not a valid option.
Whoever suggested Fantastic and paper towels for instant cleanup? Making the calculations of using a disposable towel every 15 minutes, and soap which is also not cheap, I can save more by sending my kids to a local day camp.
People who like to criticize Chassidim won't stop just because you've reminded them that no one asked them, not to give a penny and not to become a Chossid. They just don't like Chassidim and will give their opinion six zillion times because that's how worth it is is to bash Chassidim. Because there are just so many things Chassidim do wrong. And don't you know, Chassidim don't even take showers. Not even in the three weeks for Ahavas Yisroel's sake.
Um, I grew up in Monsey and my family always got solicited from Chassidim.
Were they collecting for their moised? Most chassidishe meshulachim are collecting for themselves/their family. Chassidishe mosdos generally have their own נגידים who give financial support.
Whoever suggested Fantastic and paper towels for instant cleanup? Making the calculations of using a disposable towel every 15 minutes, and soap which is also not cheap, I can save more by sending my kids to a local day camp.
How do you figure this? Soap is about $2 a bottle, paper towels about $1 a roll. I don't use more than one of each per day (actually considerably less). Does your local day camp cost less than $3 per kid per day?
So do like I said and like most Israelis do.
Take a rag and cut it up into pieces, here we use sponja shmattas, I am sure there are equivalents everywhere of such rags.
Get a squeeze bottle and fill 90% with water and 10% with soap. If you really want to do it nice then add a bit of either denatured alcohol, vinegar or lemon juice (or, not all).
Costs pennies. When you are done with the rag toss into washing machine or wet laundry bag. I go through maybe six or seven such rags a day, I have a pile of maybe 50. I do wash more than once every five days so I always have a clean pile of such rags to use.
No paper towels, no waste of money, nothing.
Gryp you may be doing all those things but when one complains about it on a board of women posters, don't be surprised if some of those posters come up with suggestions of how to streamline the labor.
It's not like we all are ladies of leisure. We all have kitchens, most of us have kids, some of us have had lots of them around and we all know that kids can make a mess. We have all cleaned up such messes, so what's wrong with sharing our methods? I've learned so much from other imamothers about how to streamline, save money, etc. and I milechaschila consider myself to be frugal, organized and fast. And yet I have learned and I'm grateful for any tips. Some aren't applicable to my life, some are and I thank for all and just apply those which work. Particularly when I have complained about something.
Here's an example. On one of the life in Israel threads ages ago there was a discussion that had to do with electricity and prices here. I was one of those who mentioned that I had a high electric bill. One of the other posters suggested to do what she does, to replace all my incandescent bulbs with compact flourescents. We have a lot of lights for a tiny apartment and considering that on shabbos many of them stay on for hours (living room, dining area, kitchen) and some for 25 hours, (light over sink in kitchen, bathrooms) I took a leaf out of her book and went and replaced my incandescents. Even the nightlight that we leave on every single night is now a compact flourescent. And you know what? It makes a difference. Thank you X (you know who you are) for suggesting it.
Another poster suggested investing in power strips and turning off the electricity at night on many of these strips that keep powering things that aren't needed when we go to sleep - TV, computer, printer, speakers, etc. Took a while but I did it. Another savings. Thank you Y (you know who you are).
No one came to defend me saying "Freidasima click on your ignore button. No need to care about what others think about your electric bill. If you think you need incandescent bulbs you are an adult and can think for yourself". Just the opposite. They said "Freidasima how can such an intelligent woman still be using incandescent bulbs ARE YOU CRAZY???" And they were RIGHT. And I thank them for it.
If a person complains about something on an internet board, it's open season for suggestions to solve that problem. That's just the nature of the dynamics here. Nothing wrong with it either.
Fireda, just a little question. Do you agree that to some troubles, there is no solution? Really, I'm serious. Some issues are ones that just have to be sweated out. Not everything has a perfect cure or solution.
So do like I said and like most Israelis do.
Take a rag and cut it up into pieces, here we use sponja shmattas, I am sure there are equivalents everywhere of such rags.
Get a squeeze bottle and fill 90% with water and 10% with soap. If you really want to do it nice then add a bit of either denatured alcohol, vinegar or lemon juice (or, not all).
Costs pennies. When you are done with the rag toss into washing machine or wet laundry bag. I go through maybe six or seven such rags a day, I have a pile of maybe 50. I do wash more than once every five days so I always have a clean pile of such rags to use.
No paper towels, no waste of money, nothing.
Gryp you may be doing all those things but when one complains about it on a board of women posters, don't be surprised if some of those posters come up with suggestions of how to streamline the labor.
It's not like we all are ladies of leisure. We all have kitchens, most of us have kids, some of us have had lots of them around and we all know that kids can make a mess. We have all cleaned up such messes, so what's wrong with sharing our methods? I've learned so much from other imamothers about how to streamline, save money, etc. and I milechaschila consider myself to be frugal, organized and fast. And yet I have learned and I'm grateful for any tips. Some aren't applicable to my life, some are and I thank for all and just apply those which work. Particularly when I have complained about something.
Here's an example. On one of the life in Israel threads ages ago there was a discussion that had to do with electricity and prices here. I was one of those who mentioned that I had a high electric bill. One of the other posters suggested to do what she does, to replace all my incandescent bulbs with compact flourescents. We have a lot of lights for a tiny apartment and considering that on shabbos many of them stay on for hours (living room, dining area, kitchen) and some for 25 hours, (light over sink in kitchen, bathrooms) I took a leaf out of her book and went and replaced my incandescents. Even the nightlight that we leave on every single night is now a compact flourescent. And you know what? It makes a difference. Thank you X (you know who you are) for suggesting it.
Another poster suggested investing in power strips and turning off the electricity at night on many of these strips that keep powering things that aren't needed when we go to sleep - TV, computer, printer, speakers, etc. Took a while but I did it. Another savings. Thank you Y (you know who you are).
No one came to defend me saying "Freidasima click on your ignore button. No need to care about what others think about your electric bill. If you think you need incandescent bulbs you are an adult and can think for yourself". Just the opposite. They said "Freidasima how can such an intelligent woman still be using incandescent bulbs ARE YOU CRAZY???" And they were RIGHT. And I thank them for it.
If a person complains about something on an internet board, it's open season for suggestions to solve that problem. That's just the nature of the dynamics here. Nothing wrong with it either.
FS, I totally understand why people should put you on ignore. WHY are you suggesting using shmattas? Just because you use them in Israel? Really, the whole world is not Israel, you know. If you lived five flights up with no elevator with no park in 700 miles in the stifling heat of Brooklyn, you would know you cannot use a shmatta, but must use half a roll of that super-strong expensive disposable towel. Why are you giving tips which no one in Brooklyn can use? Here we have to wash our entire apartment every time some juice spills. Otherwise we'd need a mortgage for disposable towel.
And even if it's on sale, we cannot go shopping, because THIS ISN'T EY, YOU KNOW, WHERE THEY HAVE STORES. You just don't understand.
This is my last attempt, Freidasima. I am being as blunt as possible because you didn't catch the last few attempts.
You are hurting people with your words. Be the tough lady you say you are and apologize and be nicer next time. Don't just fling out odd statements like: "I'm not playing any roles here, I come here for fun and entertainment and say whatever I want."
You may think you need to tell me how to clean my floors. Ding Dong. I wasn't born yesterday. Please keep your methods for people who truly can't figure out what to do with an old rag. Do I feel the need to teach you how to plug in your washing machine? If I did, you'd think I thought you were senile and wouldn't like it. Please think about how others will react to your words before you say them.
The same thing happened with the weight loss thread and others before it. You insult people and when they tell you that you're being insulting, you shrug and say it again. And again. And they ask you to please stop, and as if they asked of you the opposite, you continue.
In the words of my sixth grade Ivrit teacher: Maspik kvar.
So do like I said and like most Israelis do.
Take a rag and cut it up into pieces, here we use sponja shmattas, I am sure there are equivalents everywhere of such rags.
Get a squeeze bottle and fill 90% with water and 10% with soap. If you really want to do it nice then add a bit of either denatured alcohol, vinegar or lemon juice (or, not all).
Costs pennies. When you are done with the rag toss into washing machine or wet laundry bag. I go through maybe six or seven such rags a day, I have a pile of maybe 50. I do wash more than once every five days so I always have a clean pile of such rags to use.
No paper towels, no waste of money, nothing.
Gryp you may be doing all those things but when one complains about it on a board of women posters, don't be surprised if some of those posters come up with suggestions of how to streamline the labor.
It's not like we all are ladies of leisure. We all have kitchens, most of us have kids, some of us have had lots of them around and we all know that kids can make a mess. We have all cleaned up such messes, so what's wrong with sharing our methods? I've learned so much from other imamothers about how to streamline, save money, etc. and I milechaschila consider myself to be frugal, organized and fast. And yet I have learned and I'm grateful for any tips. Some aren't applicable to my life, some are and I thank for all and just apply those which work. Particularly when I have complained about something.
Here's an example. On one of the life in Israel threads ages ago there was a discussion that had to do with electricity and prices here. I was one of those who mentioned that I had a high electric bill. One of the other posters suggested to do what she does, to replace all my incandescent bulbs with compact flourescents. We have a lot of lights for a tiny apartment and considering that on shabbos many of them stay on for hours (living room, dining area, kitchen) and some for 25 hours, (light over sink in kitchen, bathrooms) I took a leaf out of her book and went and replaced my incandescents. Even the nightlight that we leave on every single night is now a compact flourescent. And you know what? It makes a difference. Thank you X (you know who you are) for suggesting it.
Another poster suggested investing in power strips and turning off the electricity at night on many of these strips that keep powering things that aren't needed when we go to sleep - TV, computer, printer, speakers, etc. Took a while but I did it. Another savings. Thank you Y (you know who you are).
No one came to defend me saying "Freidasima click on your ignore button. No need to care about what others think about your electric bill. If you think you need incandescent bulbs you are an adult and can think for yourself". Just the opposite. They said "Freidasima how can such an intelligent woman still be using incandescent bulbs ARE YOU CRAZY???" And they were RIGHT. And I thank them for it.
If a person complains about something on an internet board, it's open season for suggestions to solve that problem. That's just the nature of the dynamics here. Nothing wrong with it either.
FS, I totally understand why people should put you on ignore. WHY are you suggesting using shmattas? Just because you use them in Israel? Really, the whole world is not Israel, you know. If you lived five flights up with no elevator with no park in 700 miles in the stifling heat of Brooklyn, you would know you cannot use a shmatta, but must use half a roll of that super-strong expensive disposable towel. Why are you giving tips which no one in Brooklyn can use? Here we have to wash our entire apartment every time some juice spills. Otherwise we'd need a mortgage for disposable towel.
And even if it's on sale, we cannot go shopping, because THIS ISN'T EY, YOU KNOW, WHERE THEY HAVE STORES. You just don't understand.
And even if we could, chadash assur min haTorah.
Please make note of the person who says she uses disposable paper towels and fantastik. Not a Brooklyn poster. Brooklyn people say they are too expensive.
It amazes me how you have an idea of Americans in your head and you stick with it no matter what the evidence is to the contrary.
you can choose not to wear a sheitel or skirts, not to keep strict hechsherim, not to send to Jewish schools, not live amongst other Jews.
And that may be your definition of a frum Jewish life. Your choice. To say that should be everyone's definition is no less obnoxious or annoying or disrespectful than me telling you G-d says you must wear a sheitel every day even while sleeping.
(1) Why do you think skirts are more expensive than any other type of clothing? If anything, they're actually LESS expensive, because a poorly tailored or poorly fitting pair of pants is trash, while there is a lot more leeway with skirts. Compare your clothes to your husband's if you need proof.
(2) Tichels and scarves are quite inexpensive, and cover well. But if you feel that you need a sheitl --does anyone other than Lubavitch hold that is necessary -- then do the math. A $1500 sheitl, worn for 3 years, is $9.60 a week. Getting a $50 (moderate in NYC) haircut every 2 months for 3 years is $900. $200 a year difference. Now, if you tell me that you can't wear a $1500 sheitl, that you need to send it to the sheitl macher to have it look nice instead of doing it yourself, need more than one, and/or need expensive cuts for the hair you cover as well, we're in different territory.
(3) Strict hecsherim -- are you suggesting that the families that accept less strict hechserim are not frum? Because that's what I hear you saying. I concede that some hechshers, and being kosher in general, is more expensive. But there are certainly ways to decrease the costs.
(4) Day schools are expensive. No question.
(5) Living amongst Jews -- that can be done in a lot of places, at a lot of price points. If I were to say that I need to live in Lawrence or Scarsdale, and should be entitled to tzedaka to buy a house there, people would laugh at me. Why is that sillier than saying its necessary to live in any other neighborhood?
Fireda, just a little question. Do you agree that to some troubles, there is no solution? Really, I'm serious. Some issues are ones that just have to be sweated out. Not everything has a perfect cure or solution.
Believing there are no solutions, at least to simple problems, is fatalistic.
you can choose not to wear a sheitel or skirts, not to keep strict hechsherim, not to send to Jewish schools, not live amongst other Jews.
And that may be your definition of a frum Jewish life. Your choice. To say that should be everyone's definition is no less obnoxious or annoying or disrespectful than me telling you G-d says you must wear a sheitel every day even while sleeping.
(1) Why do you think skirts are more expensive than any other type of clothing? If anything, they're actually LESS expensive, because a poorly tailored or poorly fitting pair of pants is trash, while there is a lot more leeway with skirts. Compare your clothes to your husband's if you need proof.
(2) Tichels and scarves are quite inexpensive, and cover well. But if you feel that you need a sheitl --does anyone other than Lubavitch hold that is necessary -- then do the math. A $1500 sheitl, worn for 3 years, is $9.60 a week. Getting a $50 (moderate in NYC) haircut every 2 months for 3 years is $900. $200 a year difference. Now, if you tell me that you can't wear a $1500 sheitl, that you need to send it to the sheitl macher to have it look nice instead of doing it yourself, need more than one, and/or need expensive cuts for the hair you cover as well, we're in different territory.
(3) Strict hecsherim -- are you suggesting that the families that accept less strict hechserim are not frum? Because that's what I hear you saying. I concede that some hechshers, and being kosher in general, is more expensive. But there are certainly ways to decrease the costs.
(4) Day schools are expensive. No question.
(5) Living amongst Jews -- that can be done in a lot of places, at a lot of price points. If I were to say that I need to live in Lawrence or Scarsdale, and should be entitled to tzedaka to buy a house there, people would laugh at me. Why is that sillier than saying its necessary to live in any other neighborhood?
Barbara, I wasn't accusing anybody of anything, just to get that out of the way. I brought together the different examples people had given in this thread and others, as to why frum American life is more expensive than regular American life.
My main point was, not spending on regular "frum expenses," and then saying frum life isn't more expensive isn't exactly a fair argument.
This is kinda silly and I told myself I wouldn't do this, but here I go (why am I breaking my own rules, it just leads to trouble):
1) Skirts are more expensive than pants. Most people out there wear jeans which can be bought cheaply anywhere- Walmart, if that's where you like to shop. Skirts can't be bought anywhere. Not tznius ones anyway. Since I do most of my shopping in regular department stores (as opposed to heimish stores), I know that just about every skirt I find is either to short (especially with the style now) or with a slit. When slits are sewn down, it's almost impossible to walk comfortably. Tailoring a skirt, making your own skirts, come out to be the same as buying a good quality skirt in a heimish store- $45 is about average. I'm not even getting into how hard it is to find a skirt that looks nice.
2) I'm concentrating on sheitels because that's frum life for me. Most frum people I know own a sheitel. We know what sheitel prices are. Most people I know cut their own hair when it gets long. Many people I know wash and set their own sheitel when needed instead of burning $45 at the sheitel macher, but I'm sure we aren't the norm. Most people have one sheitel to wear every day and one for Shabbos, but the people I know have one sheitel. And sheitels generally last about 5 years.
3) My only point with strict hechsherim was that cholov yisroel, pas yisroel, certain shechitas, etc etc cost a lot more than foods that are not. We simply spend a lot more money on food. If I were to live OOT, this cost would go up enormously.
4) Our schools are generally cheaper than the typical day school but they still cost more than public school. I'm arguing that you can't say you live the "typical" frum life and don't send to a Jewish school because of the cost. Most frum people don't live that way.
5) Yes, you can live amongst Jews in many places. But many people work in klei kodesh and therefore need an in-town job where the income is consistent. Or have another parnassah reason why they can't move. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Gryp, if skirts are expensive, learn to sew like I did and my kids did. You can make beautiful inexpensive skirts for pennies from remnants, from permapress sheets on sale etc.
If sheitls are expensive do what I did when I got married. Second hand sheitls, or paula young type sheitls, wash and dry at home. I wear one every single day and you can be sure I look nice and decent. when one can afford custom or real hair, fine. If one can't there ARE doable alternatives and lots of people do them.
Hechsherim are expensive. Those who don't have enough money and the hechsherim are top priority cut back on the amount of food and type of food (no prepared products, fruit/veg only in season, dry goods in bulk) so that the overall cost can be exactly the same as regular hechsherim or even non hechshered food abroad. Many do it.
Yeshiva tuition is expensive. If a person has absolutely no resources it is possible to send to public school and get a melamed in the afternoon. A whole generation of frum girls in Britain did it and came out quite frum. It is not a great idea. It is better to look to volunteer in the school for a tuition reduction as my own mother did when I was younger and we didn't have the money to pay. If a certain school is someone's priority other things have to go in order to pay for it
One can live amongst' yidden in many places. But if living in a specific place is important to one, then again, something else has to be sacrified for it. Food, apartment size, clothes, vacations, furniture, entertainment, camp.
And last but not least Gryp, if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen instead of trying to kick other people out.
The girls slept over at a friend's house. DS age 8 went to play sports organized by one of our avreichim. I took DS age almost 5 with me walking in the heat to buy more school aupplies. We also had to buy bubbles and a jump rope and a frisbee for tomorrow's meeting at Sanhedria park with my friend from Kiryat Sefer, because I was told that there's not much for kids to climb on there.
While in the toy store, there was a siren, so we cowered in the rear of the store. I called the Moked who said it was a drill.
Exchanged Jodi Picoult books at the library. DS enjoyed clicking the elevator buttons.
Went with DH to meet with someone who can hopefully advise about yeshivos for DS who is returning home from America.
Made delicious rice soup with leftover Shabbos food.
Did more laundry.
Boys spent hours on the computer. DH got Rimon but it deletes some of the ads on Imamother. He is experimenting with several different levels of protection.
My one-morning-a-week cleaner complained that things were SO messy and dirty, because the kids are on vacation.
If you think it needs to be cleaned 6 times in one day, you're an adult and can think for yourself. Obviously, if it got dirty 6 times in one day, it needs to be cleaned that many times. I vacuum my carpeted lr/dr more than 6 times a day, if that makes you feel better. And wash the table and 6 chairs after every snack/meal.
