No one should feel guilty because they can't give tzeddakah, or doesn't want to give to x or y cause.
People who get tzeddakah shouldn't feel guilty.
Bar Mitzvahs don't have to involve a meal. Hate to break this to everyone but it use to be the Bar Mitzvah was the boy got called to the Torah. His father may have given him a bottle of snaps. His mom may have baked a cake or maybe the woman he was eating by baked him a cake.
That was that.
No need for fancy.
Nor should gifts be related to the meal plate. If you want to honor someone for their Bar Mitzvah/Bat Mitzva get a gift, don't calculate the cost of the meal.
Give because it is our obligation to keep our brothers and sisters from living in squalor, not having decent clothes, medical care, food, shelter. If you feel that a particular camp supplies a need not a want, give as your tzeddakah. That's fine. There are children for whom that week at camp means rare joy, better food than normal, a chance to grow intellectually or physically.
But there are so many in need no need to get worked up over any particular recipient/cause.
No one should feel guilty because they can't give tzeddakah, or doesn't want to give to x or y cause.
People who get tzeddakah shouldn't feel guilty.
Bar Mitzvahs don't have to involve a meal. Hate to break this to everyone but it use to be the Bar Mitzvah was the boy got called to the Torah. His father may have given him a bottle of snaps. His mom may have baked a cake or maybe the woman he was eating by baked him a cake.
That was that.
No need for fancy.
Nor should gifts be related to the meal plate. If you want to honor someone for their Bar Mitzvah/Bat Mitzva get a gift, don't calculate the cost of the meal.
Give because it is our obligation to keep our brothers and sisters from living in squalor, not having decent clothes, medical care, food, shelter. If you feel that a particular camp supplies a need not a want, give as your tzeddakah. That's fine. There are children for whom that week at camp means rare joy, better food than normal, a chance to grow intellectually or physically.
But there are so many in need no need to get worked up over any particular recipient/cause.
Similar to the camp thing -- its difficult to keep your children home when all of their friends are at camp -- its difficult to have a bare bones bar mitzvah when everyone else is partying hardy. But sometimes, it has to be.
Some of the ways that people are dealing with that in my community: (I) Leyning on a weekday. Then the people who attend have a small kiddush/breakfast afterwards. Everyone is rushing off, so no one is looking for hours of entertainment. (ii) Combining parties. The bar mitzvah boy leyns on Shabbat, and there is a kiddush/lunch for relatives and adults. Small being the key word here. Then the boy has a party for friends only, but in conjunction with one or two other boys in his class. The families split the cost of joint guests (which will be most of the guests), and pick up the costs of their individual guests on their own. We're even starting to see this with kiddushes/luncheons, where the kids split the parsha.
Similar to the camp thing -- its difficult to keep your children home when all of their friends are at camp -- its difficult to have a bare bones bar mitzvah when everyone else is partying hardy. But sometimes, it has to be.
That I understand. It is very painful. My daughter had a friend sponsored Bat Mitzvah...we didn't ask the girls just did it. We were going to have a kiddish, ze hu.
You do what you have to. You give because you have an obligation. We are suppose to be one, that means we are really suppose to hurt when someone else is hurting.
Certainly we can't give everywhere...so we pick and choose. There is a man who I sometimes see when I'm on my way to work and if I can I try and give to him. I does make me happy when I can give him something. I wish I could do more.
Isramom I'm not the one who decides, everyone decides for themselves as we well know. But why should X decide to have more kids which she knows she can't afford so that I will be forced to support them? Because in truth that is what happens. There is barely enough money to go around for what already exists but if a woman decides just for the sake of having children for procreations sake with no way to support them basing it not that hashem himself will provide as he did in mitzrayim with absolutely no bosom vodom having to give anything, but on setting these kids up for poverty and to live on charity it is not the Jewish way.
We are not in mitzrayim. That is not an example to learn from. The answer to mitzrayim was not zedoko. You could ask how women who thought that their children may be killed continued to have kids in the ghettos. Because no zedoko would help, only a miracle. That's different.
That's not what you are advocatingl These women are not looking for a miracle to save from annihilation. They are COUNTING milechaschila on alms for the poor.
How pathetic.
How unjewish
I have never heard a jewish woman advocate what you seem to be advocating. It's off the wall in my book.
My point wasn't that you should spill your guts LOL. The general YOU should be always thinking "Going forward I can't afford XYZ, how do I change that?"
In all likelihood, my kids will lain on shabbos and then have a kiddush in our shul afterwards. That costs around $750 right now....we will invite siblings and grandparents and local friends. That's it. People who don't like it can sponsor the events themselves.
Isramom, its not that children are only for the rich. But having kids AND living a certain lifestyle IS for the wealthier. We all sacrifice in different ways for our chosen lifestyle but taking tzedaka for choices you make is not really the answer.
You want another kid? Go ahead. The actual cost of an additional child is not that much - basically food, diapers, clothing. But when you add on wants then yes, rich people have better ability to afford kids. Just prioritize your money.
I have a friend in West Virginia. Last year her husband earned just under $30k. They took no social services, no charity and they just had their 6th kid. They can't all fit in their car so they don't go out with all of them and they can't afford another car. But they wanted another child.
Israel is the only country in the world where there is an inverse relationship between wealth and the number of children a couple has. In most developed countries, the wealthier people are, the less children they have. In Israel, when people feel they can afford it, they have more kids. So even amongst irreligious families, 3-4 kids is nothing out of the ordinary.
With Jews in general outside Israel, I think that there is a relationship between the number of children a couple has and their Jewish affiliation. The more left wing = the less children. The more right wing = the more children, usually regardless of income.
I don't see too many MOs having more and more children because they realize they can't afford it all. MOS, up to recently were not willing to forgo the camp experience for their kids, especially in a household with 2 working parents. To 4 children are already a lot to support.
Right wing families have the bitachon that the money will show up, somehow. Apparently, it usually does, besides for some people left behind. I guess those people are the ones who are unhappy. Unless they are able to make lemonade mommy camp out of lemons.
Its not so simple tamiri
it's not like chilonim are just waiting around to have more and more kids and wait until they have money and then voila - big family.
there are lots of poor chiloni families who have lots of kids and it has nothing to do with money
they are mostly from poor places and not necessarily religious.
when you say "right wing" do you mean chardal? I know a lot of politically right wing in America and in EY who never think that money will just "show up" and they work very hard and plan and are responsible financially. You should define right wing here because I think you are thinking of a very specific group of people, usually mitnachalim and usually only in certain areas.
In the MO world in Teaneck at least, many people stop because of tuition. Although, the people who have no hopes of paying full tuition often have no qualms about having more kids because they aren't going to pay more. So the borderline people sort of get screwed.
What I am advocating is Jewish women continuing to have the children they want to, and organizations continuing to subsidize day camp.
How long is that sustainable? If you are advocating that every Jewish family have as many children as they possibly can, irregardless of the family's ability to support the children financially or emotionally (I'm not clear if you're advocating the latter or not), then where does the money to subsidize come from? Virtually every family will be stretched to its financial limit.
That's a direct relationship, not an inverse one. Inverse means that as one variable rises, the other falls.
Okay thanks. What I meant to say is that in the world at large, as wealth rises, birthrate drops. In Israel it's the opposite. Did I get the wrong word in there?
Its not so simple tamiri
it's not like chilonim are just waiting around to have more and more kids and wait until they have money and then voila - big family.
there are lots of poor chiloni families who have lots of kids and it has nothing to do with money
they are mostly from poor places and not necessarily religious.
when you say "right wing" do you mean chardal? I know a lot of politically right wing in America and in EY who never think that money will just "show up" and they work very hard and plan and are responsible financially. You should define right wing here because I think you are thinking of a very specific group of people, usually mitnachalim and usually only in certain areas.
Poor have more kids the world over. What I am saying is that the WEALTHY in Israel also have more kids, more than their wealthy counterparts abroad. This is from a study DH read me a while back. That Israel is different than any other country in that aspect. I thought it was interesting. I think it's where the Jewish neshama yearning for kids kicks in, even if the person doesn't know it's the neshama wanting the children.
When I say right wing, I mean anything right of me. Religiously right wing, not politically.
I don't see too many extremely rich MO people having more kids, either. Even when you have a neurosurgeon married to a CEO (or whatever), people tend to stick to 3 kids. Occasionally 4.
I think it's more cultural than financial.
In Israel I don't find that poorer people have fewer kids - they just move further and further out of town. Go to places like Elon Moreh or the "caravilla" cities, there are plenty of families with 8 kids, one 20-year-old car, and not much else.
eta - OK I see what you're saying now. That's interesting. It does somewhat match what I've seen.
Last edited by ora_43 on Wed, Jul 06 2011, 3:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
In the MO world in Teaneck at least, many people stop because of tuition. Although, the people who have no hopes of paying full tuition often have no qualms about having more kids because they aren't going to pay more. So the borderline people sort of get screwed.
Yep. I have to admit we had kids without knowing how we'd get that tuition paid, but it worked out. Especially since once it got over the top, meaning I would have had to go out and work, we moved away. I was very sorry to realize that people limit the family size because of tuition, which I heard about but didn't quite experience as 4 was basically average for the MO families I knew. I can't imagine that many people who would have wanted more. What is sad is those who have 2-3 and call it quits because of tuition, even though they would have wanted that 4th or 5th child. But I understand it and think it's the responsible thing to do.
No worries, people! When I start my Mommy camp we'll have a panhandling activity every day. That way we'll burn time, learn the value of money, and be able to pay for 4 Bar Mitzvahs.
No worries, people! When I start my Mommy camp we'll have a panhandling activity every day. That way we'll burn time, learn the value of money, and be able to pay for 4 Bar Mitzvahs.
And they won't take American Express!
Hey, shnorring is a job too!
Well there are other factors regarding family size. My husband earns one of those large MO salaries you're all talking about. Not to say low income families don't ever work long hrs but my husband's kollel chavrusa is around in the middle of the day all the time. His kollel hrs are simply flexible. So I see him out and about in the middle of the day a lot. So while he's never going to provide a big salary for his wife and their many kids, he's physically there for them more than other husbands. He has the flexibility to help with carpool and doctor's appointments and emergencies.
Now my husband earns enough for us to have many kids. But we're not going to have, most likely, more than 4. I can't handle it. He's rarely around. He will never be able to do carpool, he will never be able to help out unless it was g-d forbid a serious emergency and even then I wonder. He has no flexibility. I have no interest in hiring a nanny so that I can have more kids than I can handle by myself, not that we really have that kind of extra money anyhow.
