I wrote a whole long answer and it got erased as I got disconnected. So I will keep it short.
Three points.
1) we have had many threads comparing prices of life in EY to America and it really depends who, where, how many kids and what your lifestyle is. There are those who would earn ten times as much, three times as much, and less in America than here in EY. There are those who would pay less for their kids more for their kids, less for health care and more for health care. etc. Across the board though in general, it's only easier here for those who are willing to live on a much lower lifestyle, have much less than in America, and send their kids to charedi education which is cheaper than DL. Because there are MO schools in america which cost $5000 OOT and those which cost $40,000 (Ramaz). Depends where, what age group etc.
That is my conclusion too and really sums it up.
Also, as I was just discussing with my brother (here from E"Y) yesterday - relativity really comes into play. Every society has the wealthy, the poor, and the middle class. So while to them the poor may be struggling to pay for day to day needs and the wealthy cover day to day needs plus apartments for their kids with little to no problems, the very real middle class can cover their daily needs plus put away in savings but when they turn 45 they have to worry about apartments for their kids. [He was explaining to me that that is just a reality of middle class life and something people accept and deal with; not something they worry about and fear.] But that was a little tangental. We in America also have a wealty, poor and middle class and where we each fall out may affect how to view our quality of life.
No, the gedolim didn't recommend using birth control for the reason you write, and no it wasn't right to just use birth control without a heter. We have a whole long thread about that.
So, which of my children shouldn't have been born?
Thats a stupid question and you know it.
I didnt mention money anywhere regarding birth control. I said if you cant handle your current kids because of pregnancy or nursing, then you dont need to get pregnant. Not being able to handle your kids and getting overwhelmed by them is a perfectly valid reason for birth control across all spectrums, unless perhaps chabad, but I bet even there. Its called for mental health reasons.
degoldy, large families doesn't equal no birth control.
Secondly, there is no way a large sized family can get by these days without any tzedaka. NO way. In our community there is so many organizations and gemachim to support families, that I can't even count them. And the tuition reductions are out of hand.
Huh? I definitely know of some large families that get by without any tzedaka. And large by any standards, not just secular standards. Its called living frugally and making smart choices.
The only large families I know who don't need tzedaka are the ones who inherited wealth. I don't take tzedaka, I live pretty frugally, I have five kids, and I know very well that when it's Bar Mitzvah time X 4, then comes yeshivos, weddings, etc., there's no way I will be able to afford all of that unless Hashem puts us in a unique position to do so. Living frugally only goes so far.
I'm sure there are plenty of people right around the bend ready to call me every name in the book, but honestly, I don't care much. As if I haven't heard it already. In my eyes I am doing the right thing and that's what counts. Rest assured, the tzedaka organizations around here don't fundraise from Israeli or MO Imamothers, so if you have the arrogance to suggest I'll be taking tzedaka from YOU, save it.
Last edited by gryp on Wed, Jul 06 2011, 8:47 am; edited 1 time in total
Again I keep getting disconnected and losing what I wrote.
Isramom you are using demagoguery.
So I will answer in kind
You should not have the kid you cant support, can't feed, can't clothe, dont have the strength to raise, the kid who ends up a de facto orphan.
You seem to believe that women are no more than walking wombs, meaning if they can't raise their kids they should just go ahead and have them anyhow more and more and more and more.
Why? The biological imperative? I thought that we were a bit more sophisticated than that. That's primitive. Not yiddishkeit. Because in yiddishkeit including my gedolim, they definitely encouraged BC for a mother with a few children already who doesn't have the financial resources to give any more children the minimum they need to live, grow and thrive.
Gryp why will you need zedoko for bar mitzvah? If one doesn't have the money you buy a good set of tefilin for the boy, make a small kiddush and that's that. Why make a big bar mitzvah if one doesn't have the means? To take zedoko for that?
Yeshiva? Why so much money? Do you mean older yeshiva, yeshiva gevoha after high school? He who can't afford goes to work part time and learns part time. If you mean high school, why can't you offer services to a school to offset tuition? There are women who do...my grandmother worked in the kitchen of a yeshiva to enable a cousin to learn there and that was years ago...
Meaning there are often creative solutions which require going against certain societal expensive norms, but there ARE ways not to take zedoko.
I guess that the communities who encourage large families know they must also support them. And those who don't think of a large family as an ideal, will continue to look down the nose at us.
Gryp, you keep making these grand pronouncements that have nothing whatsoever to do with anything that anyone says.
No one has looked down their noses at large families. All anyone has said is that everything has an opportunity cost. If one chooses to have a large family, then one will not have as much money to spend on each individual child. And one must learn to cope with kids going in all directions, and having different needs. Presumably, people who have large families understand that, and conclude that the very real benefits of having large families outweigh the very real costs and detriments of doing so.
What you seem to want is for people to say that there should be no detriment to having a large family. Someone should donate money so that every child in a large family has all of his or her wants -- not only needs -- met. And that's not reality.
Barbara, I'm not making any grand pronouncements. It's possible there is a culture clash here and my posts are being misunderstood. I don't know what your last paragraph has to do with anything I said at all.
Personally, I think it's pretty condescending to sit back and tell a struggling mother: "You made the choices you did ten or fifteen years ago, what else did you think would happen?" It seems that nobody much understands that A) society cannot run on doctors and lawyers and B) that circumstances CHANGE.
Is there a single person here that can raise their hand and say: Yes, my life has panned out exactly as I planned it all those years ago in high school?
If so, then it is obvious to me that this person is missing the essential fact that G-d has blessed her life to go in the direction she wanted.
Man plans and G-d laughs. It isn't just a saying.
Why is it condescending to suggest that people need to live with the consequences of their own actions? Why is it condescending to suggest that one of those consequences is that not every kid can necessarily get the best of everything?
When I spend too much time at work on imamother, I work late, because the work doesn't get done otherwise.
When my child doesn't study on Friday, he can't play ball on Sunday., because the work needs to be done
When you have children, your income must be divided to cover all of their expenses. And that may mean that a kid who wants to wear Juicy Couture and Aeropostale is going to wear hand me downs from Old Navy; may no go to Florida for spring break even if all her friends do; and, yes, may have to spend summers at home.
We're not talking about someone who loses a job (chas v'shalom), or has problems (as did the OP of the original thread), or even who has children with unanticipated special needs (like Mama Bear). And we're not talking about telling kids that they're only entitled to one meal a day. We're talking about summer camp.
Barbara:
A) I answered the first part of your post in the post you quoted.
B) Your definition of summer camp seems to be very far from mine. I think it was Fox who said, there's camp and then there's camp. My kind of camp doesn't compare anywhere to designer clothing. The camps I am familiar with are more like an extension of school with a few activities planned for the afternoon (think: kick a ball around in the yard) and a trip once in a while. My kids go to their same classroom, have a Rebbi in the morning for davening and learning, lunch, and then a teenage counselor who plays steal the salami with them or they go to the park. Our camp doesn't even have a pool.
I think that when it comes to chinuch, allowing a kid to join his classmates for the summer, shouldn't be the biggest deal. And yes, it is chinuch because the kids who are in a system where they daven and learn each day, probably would not do it the same way if they were to stay at home, if at all. To me it is important that kids be kept in a good system, and be kept occupied.
C) To me, the average family has some kind of unanticipated stress which creates a need for the kids to be out of the house every day, when it comes to weeks on end.
Gryp how much does this "steal the salami" kind of camp you are talking about cost per kid? For how long is it?
And what is this "unexpected stress" business? Sure there are these sudden incredible blows in life may we not know from them - mortal illness, sudden death, - but on the whole, if you know that there is always going to be "something" then it's not unexpected...and one can nevertheless plan somehow...and what about the system of one mother one day a week taking a large bunch of kids? It's only one day and then she gets the other five off...
I also dont agree that big families need tzedokah - I'm 1 of 11 kids, my parents bh married off 10 of us... they did not take tzedakah for any of us. they pay tuition, sent us to camp... sometimes life was harder for them sometimes it was easier... they are not wealthy just middle class in us... which means no tax breaks, and no grants, or govt assistance, and they work it out...
I know plenty of large families that make it wo tzedaka.
Grip the real question for you is if you know you won't be able to afford life in a few years what are you doing to change that?
First off- Nobody feels good about taking tzedaka. But very often real life, things like an empty refrigerator, will override what we feel.
This is not about me. It's about a typical family whose income doesn't cover their expenses, or won't at some point. As kids get older, there are more expenses. Parents in klei kodesh, secretary jobs, etc., plus a lot of kids, doesn't equal a very large balance in the bank account.
Saw- Trust me, I'm doing what I think I need to be doing. It may not work out the way I think it will, I'm sure Hashem has a lot of surprises for me in the next decades- just like He's surprised me many times in the past decade. You may not agree with what I'm doing, you may think I need to follow your Rav instead of mine, but that part is irrelevant.
and I know very well that when it's Bar Mitzvah time X 4,
Why does someone need tzedaka to make a bar mitzva? Unless you don't have money for tefillin and/or appropriate clothes for the bar mitzva boy. Unless everyone you know is very, very poor, the gifts should cover that and a small kiddush, at least.
and I know very well that when it's Bar Mitzvah time X 4,
Why does someone need tzedaka to make a bar mitzva? Unless you don't have money for tefillin and/or appropriate clothes for the bar mitzva boy. Unless everyone you know is very, very poor, the gifts should cover that and a small kiddush, at least.
people probably won't give gifts if they are not invited to a party. Except maybe close relatives. (not that I think people need to make big bar mitzvas. but you need to be brave to buck the standard. Although Gryp seems to have a mind of her own and I can't imagine her making an over the top bar mitzva just because the cohens did)
Also, I don't know about other people but in lubavitch at least people make a seuda on the birthday. For my brothers that meant close relatives, classmates and teachers.
and I know very well that when it's Bar Mitzvah time X 4,
Why does someone need tzedaka to make a bar mitzva? Unless you don't have money for tefillin and/or appropriate clothes for the bar mitzva boy. Unless everyone you know is very, very poor, the gifts should cover that and a small kiddush, at least.
Notice I wrote Bar Mitzvah X 4. And yeshivos and then weddings.
Four bar mitzvahs in a row is not the same as one bar mitzvah. And if we get $100 in gifts, I'll be surprised.
No family friends attending the party? Not that I can recall. At first people were insulted. By now I'm used to it but I'm sure there are people who would still be insulted.
Would you make a simcha and not invite your good friend? It's kind of like a no-friends policy because you can't start choosing which friend can come and which friend can't.
No family friends attending the party? Not that I can recall. At first people were insulted. By now I'm used to it but I'm sure there are people who would still be insulted.
Would you make a simcha and not invite your good friend? It's kind of like a no-friends policy because you can't start choosing which friend can come and which friend can't.
my parents made a seuda for only family and class (we didn't have a lot of relatives so it was small) and reception buffet for friends.
earlier ones my mother catered, later on she hired a caterer.
I'm not trying to compare life in Israel and life in America. I agree completely that it depends very much on profession. Some people I know would have a comfortable job in America and would struggle in Israel, for some it's the opposite. Fine.
What I'm talking about is only the fact that people at the lower end of the spectrum get benefits in Israel that in America would be available only through tzedaka. Like nearly-free mamad education, or heavily subsidized torani or hareidi education, or basic healthcare for the whole family for just 5% of salary. And given that, it doesn't seem quite fair to me if an Israeli who benefits from those specific things criticizes an American for taking tzedaka to cover those same things.
Of course many Israelis and many Americans aren't in that category - either because they need things that can only be obtained through welfare or tzedaka in either country (eg. money for a down payment for a child's apartment), or because they don't need the benefits they get/ don't get benefits. That's a different story.
"You seem to believe that women are no more than walking wombs, meaning if they can't raise their kids they should just go ahead and have them anyhow more and more and more and more.
Why? The biological imperative? I thought that we were a bit more sophisticated than that. That's primitive. Not yiddishkeit. Because in yiddishkeit including my gedolim, they definitely encouraged BC for a mother with a few children already who doesn't have the financial resources to give any more children the minimum they need to live, grow and thrive."
And you seem to view having children as a prize that only the rich are entitled to. In Mitzrayim, in the Holocaust, brave Jewish women had children despite the great odds of not being able to raise them properly. Who are you or I to judge who shall live and who shall not live in someone else's family?
Note that I'm not opposed to birth control in principle. I'm opposed to the idea that you get to decide who has to limit her family, and when. I thought we were a little more sophisticated than that.
