I think one of my next projects will be to work on an imamother comedy involving all the topics that our threads devolve into. It should be fun. who wants to pitch in?
Seriously though, we all, myself included, get into ruts thinking that "what is is what has to be" and not even being open to suggestions because we are either so rigid, or so upset or so tired, or so OCD or so angry that we can't open ourselves up to see how others, including our nearest and dearest, see us.
Not to speak of how people further away who learn about us and our lives through the internet picture us.
There might be a difference in age groups, there might be a difference in religious groups, there might be a difference in geographical groups. But the end result is the same. We all want our chldren to grow up happy, healthy, responsible, satisfied and frum yidden, following the derekh that we have taught them, whatever it is. There are times that we have to delve a bit deeper into the derekh that we have chosen to understand it better so that we don't go off one day making big mistakes based on misunderstandings and misinterpretations. An example is what was being written here about Lubavitch. Yes, the Rebbe (do I write z"l or shlita on this forum, I don't know so I'm leaving it as is) did not even visit EY because he was well versed in halocho and knew that at his stature and in view of the fact that his "livelihood" was not dependent upon a particular place, that his wife could come with him, that he had no children whose chinuch, parnosso or shiduchim were keeping him out of EY, as soon as he would step foot on admas EY he had a strong chiyuv never to leave. And he knew that he could not do that to his chassidim so he didn't come. Many of us, myself included, can understand that grip of yiddisheit reality and whether or not we think it would have been wonderful to have Yerushalayim or Kfar Chabad as the center of the Lubavitch movement and not Brooklyn is a moot point. He acted according to halocho as almost everyone accepts it. No discussion and only admiration for being so strict with himself as I am sure as are many that he had the same longing and love for EY, would have loved to be able to daven at the kosel, visit the holy sites etc.
And it is also very understandable that a yid who is in golus, anywhere, will want to turn his life into one of kedusha and give it meaning. That is normal, understandable and laudable. Yet together with all of that, all the places which were historically called "yerushalayim d'....X" be it lita, brooklyn, Padua or Bavel, all utilized the word "yerushalayim" first in the phrase, meaning the ultimate kedusha is yerushalayim....all the rest is only an imitation. The original comes first, is higher and holier and one should never forget it.
And that's the crux of this discussion. And of the phrase that yishuv EY is shakul kineged kol hamitzvos (tosefta avodo zoro) comes from somewhere. There is no mitzva to sit in brooklyn or antwerp or London or Dniepopetrovsk. But if you are there already, then make your life a mitzva. That's bedieved, but living in EY no matter what you do and who you are, is milechaschila a mitzva in itself. Which is why the issue that Tamiri originally brought up, of people like us who would give readily for a kaytana for kids form EY battle zones falls into no category anywhere like people asking for zedoko (and in this case the people themselves had nothing to do with this kaytana, it was all from outside the area including the impetus for it in the first place) for sending kids to camp anywhere else. It's not ideology and it's not zionism. Any frum yid anywhere who recognizes the higher kedusha of EY and consequently the automatic kedusha of anyone who by their very lives in a particular place are ensuring the continuation of yidden living freely in EY, should be able to understand that there is no connection whatsoever to giving to such a cause as opposed to giving money for camp anywhere else for any other reason. Because the existence and kedusha of EY and of the people who devote their lives to living there is of a different madrega than any kedusha anywhere else.
Neither the Rebbe nor the Tzemach Tzedek would have argued with this premise. That has nothing to do with the exhortation - valid defiintely - to try and bring some of that kedusha of EY into your lives everywhere to raise your madrega. That's why we have shuls. To remind us of the beis hamikdosh and to enable us to bring some of the kedusha of the beis hamikdosh into our lives. But to say that a shul is of the madrego of the beis hamikdosh? Even if it is a shul with 10,000 members all of whom are zaddikim gemurim? Blasphemy.
So now that we have had our fun with epidurals and breast feeding and plastic tablecloths and other lovely imamother threads, let's go back to the ikar.
The camp thread that started this all off claimed that camp is a necessity. I think we have seen that for very few people is camp a real physical or mental necessity. If one can afford it, fine, it's no one's business, but to jump from there to "everyone should always have camp" says much more about the person claiming that, than about the necessity for camp.
Those of you claiming that, not that camp for special needs kids is a necessity, or that camp for kids with mothers who are phsycially or mentally ill is a necessity, or even camp for working mothers is a necessity...but that camp always for every mother is a necessity - and yes, some of you have said that - maybe take a good look at yourselves and your lives and figure out why YOU feel that way. Because it means that there is something possibly lacking in your life as a mother if you are making such a broad statement. Usually broad statements have to do with ideologies (think judaism, communism, etc.) you don't have to share it with us, but maybe think what is your ideology - about families, about children, about the role of motherhood in your lives - that makes you feel that way...it would be interesting to hear...
Being a frum yid means making sacrifices. We believe that there are many benefits so it's worth it.
Same goes for Israeli grandmothers of 60. I know so many of them helping their children out physically full time with grandchildren.
My aunt does that. You should see her health state and how she looks. It is a SHAME.
When I see how hard it is for me, I would never impose it on my mom.
I don't have a cleaning lady. I don't get manicures. I can't say we never go out or have takeout, but we're not doing it all the time.
But I sent to half-day preschool when she was 3.5, because she was an only child and I thought it would be good for her. Now she's off school, and she asks when she can go back (which she'll do for 4 weeks), because she is lonely--and no matter how much I try to entertain her, it's not the same.
Maybe in some communities, sending is just about peer pressure, but it isn't always.
We don't take tzedaka, this is just something we had to budget for, but I do resent the "why can't you take care of your kid all summer; you wanted to be a SAHM" logic. If I had no choice, I could. But day camp for a preschooler is not such a terrible expense that I can't budget a little and make both of us happier.
I don't think anyone's saying that a SAHM who sends her kids out to camp is spoiled. At least that's not what I'm saying. Camp is great for kids, and parents (also SAHMs) could use the break, esp if it's just a day camp.
We're just saying it's spoiled to expect others to subsidize camp for SAHMs, when they could have made a million other lifestyle choices along the way to allow themselves to pay for their own camp.
Go back to page 14 or so; people were saying "Why be a SAHM if you just want to send your kid out?"
Medina wise, I think in many locations Jews would have it worse without it, and also in some locations much better. It depends on the type of antisemitism around.
Ruchel maybe your aunt and mother and you yourself are of ill health. But almost all women I see here - and many that I know of abroad BTW, have more than enough strength to help full time with grandchildren.
You seem to come from a very delicate family. Most people I know are not like that. May you and your aunt and your mother and your whole family have much strength to be able to help with their familes and get the naches (yes!) of being able to contribute physically to raising their children and grandchildren and (yes!) great grandchildren.
I look at my mother in law may she live and be well to 120 who is in her very late 80s. She is planning a trip here this summer with my father in law when my daughter gives birth. Why? Because she doesn't trust me in helping my daughter and just like with the last birth two and a half years ago when she insisted to come and take care of the baby and the hosue for my daughter (God bless her!) she is doing it again now. and iy "h for as long as she can. We keep telling her that she is crazy, but she reminds us that in america she has a granddaugher of 18 months that she cares for so if she can do it for grandchildren she can certainly do it for great grandchildren who are newborns and weight a lot less! That's what we are used to. And she looks just fine. Healthy, happy and strong.
And today all of these communities are able to be as they are simply because we have a Jewish medineh. Without out, jewish communities would look like they did sixty years ago with rampant antisemitism, fear of wearing Jewish garb outside and the impossibility of getting various kosher foods. Actually the big change was only after 67 to tell you the truth, when Jews no longer feared showing that they were Jewish...and that had to do with a military victory here in EY whether various anti zionist groups like to admit it or not.
This is not 100% true.
In some places Jewish life was better and more flourishing before the Shoah. And people much less afraid too.
Ruchel maybe your aunt and mother and you yourself are of ill health. But almost all women I see here - and many that I know of abroad BTW, have more than enough strength to help full time with grandchildren.
Haha, except my aunt is an in law aunt from a totally different background... Apart from migraines, we are BH quite healthy.
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You seem to come from a very delicate family. Most people I know are not like that. May you and your aunt and your mother and your whole family have much strength to be able to help with their familes and get the naches (yes!) of being able to contribute physically to raising their children and grandchildren and (yes!) great grandchildren.
Not sure what type of picture you are getting.
My mom worked FT with long commute for more than 20 years, my aunt worked then raised a family and took care of a household without help of her sick husband, they are really, at LEAST of average strength in my velt.
We also BH live long. And naches doesn't come from running yourself dry but from enjoyment, by us.
My grandmother also came when I had DD. And helped. Doesn't mean she has koyech for a toddler or preschooler, for days and days and days.
I certainly do not envy women who have to be "horse like".
I already wrote my ideology. The Kehilla - the village that raises a child. It's not about challenging mothers to compete in struggling, and the non-survivors voted out by circumstances strapped with the consequence of not sending their children to day camp. Supports need to be put into place to facilitate the good and growth of Klal Yisrael.
Why do I feel this sense of community? I guess that's the Yiddishkeit I was educated with. My high school had an award winning chessed program - I tried most of the options. My high school accommodated my best friend who used a wheelchair, and other girls who were legally blind. I enjoyed working in a special needs sleepaway camp. My uncle with Down Syndrome was cared for by family his entire life of 66 years. My DH is responsible in a way for the families he hires as part of the community kollel he runs.
Mainstream wetsern culture assigns a high value to independence. I think Torah places more weight on interdependence towards worthwhile long term goals.
The question is not whether we need to perform Chessed, but rather, should people consciously put themselves in a situation where they will require Chessed.
And if they are in such a situation, should they keep accepting the Chessed or try and get out of that situation.
The highest form of Tzedaka is to give someone a job so that they can support themselves. Judaism most definitely perceives worth and dignity in self sufficiency.
It is unsustainable to encourage people to make choices which result in them being dependent on others. I think it is also damaging to the person.
right on Ally.
Isramom if an entire community lives by the dicta that you mention that's great. But from what I understand you aren't only soliciting for assitance within the kollel community. That's already a different story because that means that someone is counting on "community" basically from a group of people that just got geographically into a particular locale. That isn't community but for some reason you expect it. You are talking Benedict Anderson, "imagined communities" of people with the same ideals and not necessarily the same geograpic area. That's a totally different story but it's not what you expect.
Ruchel taking care of children and grandchildren does not necessarily make someone run themselves ragged. It's like from the way you describe it, normal life is too much for you, your mother, your aunt. If all these people can work full time and do other things what's the problem to take care of children for a few hours a day to help their own children? I still dont get it unless these people are phsyically terribly delicate!
And I wasn't talking about Jewish life before the Shoa. That is gone, never to return. I'm talking about post 1945.
The question is not whether we need to perform Chessed, but rather, should people consciously put themselves in a situation where they will require Chessed.
And if they are in such a situation, should they keep accepting the Chessed or try and get out of that situation.
The highest form of Tzedaka is to give someone a job so that they can support themselves. Judaism most definitely perceives worth and dignity in self sufficiency.
It is unsustainable to encourage people to make choices which result in them being dependent on others. I think it is also damaging to the person.
This. The kehilla is not helping out if it is just providing band-aids which encourage the main problems to continue festering. IMO, offering tzeddekka for camp has the risk of falling in that category. (The specific case you mentioned in Israel where kiruv families didn't ask but the kehilla decided it was important enough --- that's different. Those families would have managed just fine without the kehilla's intervention; it was just a nice treat).
The kehilla is doing no favours by getting kids' out of their moms' hair for the summer if the moms are doing no deep thinking as to why they can't handle their kids for the summer (again, due to finances/location/family size/whatever). As someone said 10 pages back, if someone who isn't working can't deal with their kids for 10 weeks, they have bigger problems then summer camp. These problems need to be addressed, not covered with gauze.
ETA - again, I'm not saying SAHMs who send out to camp or daycare are lazy!! It's very often a smart choice. I'm just saying if you're a SAHM and CAN"T AFFORD to send out, then you need to learn to deal with the situation or change it. The kehilla giving you tzeddeka isn't going to solve your problems.
Last edited by Tablepoetry on Tue, Jul 05 2011, 6:21 am; edited 1 time in total
right on Ally.
Isramom if an entire community lives by the dicta that you mention that's great. But from what I understand you aren't only soliciting for assitance within the kollel community. That's already a different story because that means that someone is counting on "community" basically from a group of people that just got geographically into a particular locale. That isn't community but for some reason you expect it. You are talking Benedict Anderson, "imagined communities" of people with the same ideals and not necessarily the same geograpic area. That's a totally different story but it's not what you expect.
Ruchel taking care of children and grandchildren does not necessarily make someone run themselves ragged. It's like from the way you describe it, normal life is too much for you, your mother, your aunt. If all these people can work full time and do other things what's the problem to take care of children for a few hours a day to help their own children? I still dont get it unless these people are phsyically terribly delicate!
And I wasn't talking about Jewish life before the Shoa. That is gone, never to return. I'm talking about post 1945.
It's true that in Israel it's super common for grandparents to help out with babysitting young ones. I know many people who moved next to his or her parents so they could help take kids out of gan/school and look after them till the parents finish work.
Of course many of us have ill parents, or parents who have passed away, or parents who live far off......but in general, healthy grandparents in Israel tend to actively help out. Those who don't are more of an anomaly than those who do.
I see lots of vibrant grandparents taking their grandchildren out in the summer. I see no reason for that to cause one to run ragged.
Ruchel taking care of children and grandchildren does not necessarily make someone run themselves ragged. It's like from the way you describe it, normal life is too much for you, your mother, your aunt. If all these people can work full time and do other things what's the problem to take care of children for a few hours a day to help their own children? I still dont get it unless these people are phsyically terribly delicate!
People who worked and stayed at home (not at the same time) will tell you work is much less difficult.
Taking care of children doesn't necessarily exhaust you unless you want to provide a camp mommy experience. It's just not fair for kids to be bored, but of course it's easier for the mom. Or you can be overly strict so you're not bothered, things became suddenly muuuuch easier. I'm not for it.
Women are precious, not horses. But kids deserve wild fun too.
BH there are more people like us than what you describe around me, or I guess women would stop wanting children.
Ruchel taking care of children and grandchildren does not necessarily make someone run themselves ragged. It's like from the way you describe it, normal life is too much for you, your mother, your aunt. If all these people can work full time and do other things what's the problem to take care of children for a few hours a day to help their own children? I still dont get it unless these people are phsyically terribly delicate!
People who worked and stayed at home (not at the same time) will tell you work is much less difficult.
Taking care of children doesn't necessarily exhaust you unless you want to provide a camp mommy experience. It's just not fair for kids to be bored, but of course it's easier for the mom. Or you can be overly strict so you're not bothered, things became suddenly muuuuch easier. I'm not for it.
Women are precious, not horses. But kids deserve wild fun too.
BH there are more people like us than what you describe around me, or I guess women would stop wanting children.
Of course things are different if the savta is still working full time in a demanding job herself. You can't really ask her to look after the grandkids after a long day at work.
But certainly I don't see what's draining about such a savta taking them out on a day trip during vacations. I see lots of grandparents with their kids at the beach, or the zoo/safari, or just at the mall. Again, if they are of reasonable health, and the kids behave reasonably (not talking about 2 yr old triplets) --- this should be fun, not draining.
Ruchel taking care of children and grandchildren does not necessarily make someone run themselves ragged. It's like from the way you describe it, normal life is too much for you, your mother, your aunt. If all these people can work full time and do other things what's the problem to take care of children for a few hours a day to help their own children? I still dont get it unless these people are phsyically terribly delicate!
People who worked and stayed at home (not at the same time) will tell you work is much less difficult.
Taking care of children doesn't necessarily exhaust you unless you want to provide a camp mommy experience. It's just not fair for kids to be bored, but of course it's easier for the mom. Or you can be overly strict so you're not bothered, things became suddenly muuuuch easier. I'm not for it.
Women are precious, not horses. But kids deserve wild fun too.
BH there are more people like us than what you describe around me, or I guess women would stop wanting children.
Of course things are different if the savta is still working full time in a demanding job herself. You can't really ask her to look after the grandkids after a long day at work.
But certainly I don't see what's draining about such a savta taking them out on a day trip during vacations. I see lots of grandparents with their kids at the beach, or the zoo/safari, or just at the mall. Again, if they are of reasonable health, and the kids behave reasonably (not talking about 2 yr old triplets) --- this should be fun, not draining.
My parents have my DD every Sunday. My friends tell me no way, their parents/in laws would never manage.
I certainly think outings are doable! What I don't believe in, is
-camp sabta
-sabta daycare
I didn't read all 30 pages of this thread but let me tell you all something. I LIKE FREE TIME. I LIKE GOING TO THE BATHROOM ALONE AND SITTING ON MY COUCH DRINKING COFFEE AND READING IMAMOTHER AND SHOPPING IN THE MARKET WITHOUT KIDS CLIMBING OUT OF THE CART AND BEGGING FOR NOSH. And I sent all my kids out to camp this summer including the one who is not even 2 yet. So what? Who said you need to make life hard for yourslf? I don't feel like I need to spend 24/7 with my kids. I AM ENJOYING MY SUMMER AND SO ARE THEY. (and in case you need to know I pay full tuition)
So, who's telling you to do otherwise? Do what you want on your dime, with your kids. I hope they and you have a great summer!
