Two parents who can work and both choose not to work, I agree it is wrong, unless someone is willing to support them in this lifestyle.
But BC is not the answer. Maybe investigating tzedaka cases better is, though.
there is no outside place where I live. I live on the outskirts of the community. there is no way they can go fly a kite by themselves where we live. I live in a building in the city.
if I want them to play I have to go to the park.
I understand that. But in addition to Prospect Park and a state park along the water in Williamsburg that opened in 2007, the NYC Parks Department lists literally hundreds of parks and playgrounds in Brooklyn.
Is it really that none of our Brooklyn posters live near any of those parks or playgrounds?
Most of our brooklyn posters live in williamsburg, boropark and crown heights. each of these places is a subway or bus ride to one of these amazing places.
Today I had planned to take my almost 3 yr old child with PDD-NOS to Pier 6. I was all excited; the sensory experience of the sand and water would be sublime.
Well guess what? He woke up cranky. I had to take him out of the house to drop off my 5 yr old to his first day of summer cheder. the 3 yr old had such a nuclear meltdown at the cheder it was embarrasing. I had to fight back tears; all around me were kids YOUNGER THAN HIM going happily into theri classrooms while he was throwing his shoes, socks, bottle everywhre and the principal was knowingly rolling his eyes that 'this is how it is on the first day of cheder...' while I told him acidly that my son isnt capable of going to cheder and he stupidly wondered what the problem was.
So from there I decided to sit down at my mother's house with pen and paper to make some lists and brainstorm; my head is practically exploding from Upsherin-Moving-FirstDayofSpecEdSchoolTomorrow-Errands-WhereShouldWeGoToday-IHaventEatenYet. My son had his second nuclear meltdown, getting purple in the face and refusing to leave his stroller. THere was no way I could get on a bus or into a car like that. I was already sopping wet with perspiration and wrung out physically and emotionally.
I turned around and went home. And gave up. I'm just letting him trash the house. I REFUSE to be turned into a dishrag. I'm too precious . and I have too much to do. So that's it; Pier 6 will have to make do without us. I'll take him to the local playground soon & let him run under the sprinker.
And I'm talking about going to a park here with ONE kid... imagine a mother with 2 or 3 such kids.
(PS - I didnt address your post where you said that the person who says you cant understand cuz you have one kid, only has 2 kids. Well my little one is as draining as five kids, due to his various special needs. It's a whoel differnet ball game. So I was just explaning to you how crazy and hectic it would be for someone with five or six kids, at least one of which is probably difficult and stubborn.)
Interestingly enough, she mentioned something which hasn't been mentioned on this thread. Family. As she said, when she is zonked it's never a problem for us or her mother in law to take her grandson for a while, just as we are begining to take our other granddaughter and will help with the new baby as soon as he/she (she refuses to say whether boy or girl but at this point let it just be healthy) is born. All the women saying that they can't cope - no one has any family around? No parents, no sisters, no sisters in law etc? To give you a break for a while and then for you to give them (sils etc.) a break? And there I was thinking that the whole point of living in Brooklyn or whatever and paying exorbitant prices and horrible conditions was to be near family for many...so where do they come in? Or don't they?
Because the reason for living near family wasnt so that the family can help us - it's so that we can be there for them!!! So that my kids can go over for a shabbos seudah, so that in a pinch my sister can come over and babysit at night. So that we can go visit anytime. So that when my sister gets engaged I dont have to scramble to find sitters and travel for 3 hours just to spend 5 minutes at the vort.
If you think us 35 yr olds have little energy for rambunctious kids, dyou think 60 yr olds do?
And yes, even though our mothers/MILs are helpful in their own way, that makes a DENT into 10 weeksX7daysX24 hrs a day.
my mother has a big porch where we can fill a pool on Friday afternoons;
my mother is IYh baking a milchig cake for the upsherin next week;
my mother is available to pick up my son from therapy every once in a while;
my mother will IYH provide me with suppers and childcare the day we're moving IYH;
but my mother isnt their mother and if I cant manage to do mommy camp for 10 weeks, she certainly can't/won't.
Again, we dont live near our parens/sibs so they can help us. We live near them so not to deprive them of the nachas of seeing their nachas.
As for sibs: KE"H they have even larger families. I should dump my kids on their doorsteps? Or take care of a whole bunch of other kids on top of my own?
The world is too black and white to you Frieda... there are many, many shades of gray. and silver.
wait barbara. wer eyou talking about 'regular playgrounds'? Sure we go there. those are packed with kids. but it's not possible to go there in the daytime - the parks are a furnace in the daytime sun. you can manage to go for half an hour, an hour at most. that doesnt fill the remaining 12 hours of the day.
So basically the only children worthy enough of tzedaka to go to camp are children in israel. Those families have no choice in where they live but families that live in NY have a choice and should move somewhere else.
American mothers in NY are often lazy and need to grow up (not all but only the ones with alot of kids that live in NYC). If you live in a highly suburban american area with basically a playground for a backyard then you are a tzedekas for being able to handle you children all day.
Sounds like you should move out of the city Mama Bear! Seriously, try to take steps to move somewhere a little nicer. G-d willing you're family will grow and you'll be facing this same challenge for yrs to come.
I know just going to the park for a short bit can be too much effort but sometimes hanging out there fr longer periods makes it more worthwhile. You could try spending half days at the park which is what I did when I lived in the city for 10 yrs. We would pack tons of stuff to load up the stroller and walk to a large park (20 min walk). I'd pack food, of course, but even a towl to sit in and books for some down time in between running around. And one of our parks had sprinklers so it was free water play.
First of all there is no grass in the city parks. my son thrives on the grass, not the concrete. Secondly, we do take him to parks. A LOT. it's too shmoiling hot there in the daytime. and my 5 yr old doesnt always want to stay there all afteroon. You have to fill all the kids needs...
I'm going to a park soon, as a matter of fact, with a sprinkler, and will let him run loose...
Mama Bear, many children are a challenge to their parents. I do everything that everyone else does, without any parents or siblings nearby AND I work full time. And I always did.
You think my kids never went ballistic in the house? Ran opposite ways at the park? Needed therapy or other treatment? Of course they did.
I'm confused. I thought I was the older generation. I have a married daughter. But I also have a 4 year old. What am I, generationless - a classic?
And goshdarnit, I keep meaning to hand my kids rolls of toilet paper, request with a straight face to rip them into uniform lengths, and video the looks on their faces. Maybe they'll find this normal. Enquiring minds want to know.
Hey, watching the video will supply them with hours of entertainment. You might be on to something.
Sounds like you should move out of the city Mama Bear! Seriously, try to take steps to move somewhere a little nicer. G-d willing you're family will grow and you'll be facing this same challenge for yrs to come.
I know just going to the park for a short bit can be too much effort but sometimes hanging out there fr longer periods makes it more worthwhile. You could try spending half days at the park which is what I did when I lived in the city for 10 yrs. We would pack tons of stuff to load up the stroller and walk to a large park (20 min walk). I'd pack food, of course, but even a towl to sit in and books for some down time in between running around. And one of our parks had sprinklers so it was free water play.
And some of you whose kids are a handful might see if hiring a mother's helper is realistic or affordable to go with you on outings, or help out on those days when you're at home. (Sorry, Gryp, I think I just became one of those old fogeys who came up with a brilliant duh suggestion, huh.)
if I cant manage to do mommy camp for 10 weeks, she certainly can't/won't.
Yeah, that. My parents are EXHAUSTED (at best, at worst my mom is in bed with a migraine) after a DAY. For one or two weeks, my mom goes to her parents and brother for help. Camp is less expensive than 2 tickets to Israel.
What happens if the camp tells you its going to cost a certain amount but one month before camp starts they say that they had to increase it ALOT?
This year that happened to me. My daughters camp increased the fee for her camp by $1000 for the summer, one month before camp started. How was I suppose to know that, when they didn't tell anyone till the last minute?
So basically the only children worthy enough of tzedaka to go to camp are children in israel. Those families have no choice in where they live but families that live in NY have a choice and should move somewhere else.
American mothers in NY are often lazy and need to grow up (not all but only the ones with alot of kids that live in NYC). If you live in a highly suburban american area with basically a playground for a backyard then you are a tzedekas for being able to handle you children all day.
I am getting this right?
Not in my book but then I'm being ignored. Probably because I'm being brittle and antagonistic. Hey, my mood.
I understand you, but the game is not fair when you compare frum mothers with not frum mothers. In the frum world, life is more stressful, bigger families, Shabbos, Yomim Tovim, keeping halachos of kashrus, tznius etc. make life more hectic. A lot of frum people won't let their kids watch videos, go to the beach, etc.
That's such a negative view .
And IME, not accurate.
Frum families aren't always bigger, even if they are frum SAHMs usually aren't home with more children than their non-frum counterparts, people who aren't Jewish have holidays too, people who aren't Jewish have to cook and clean on Saturdays, and I have no idea why keeping kashrut or tzniut would make life more difficult, practically speaking (emotionally, sure, if you're used to tank tops it might be an adjustment - but those extra few inches of fabric don't make the shirt any more expensive or difficult to put on).
I'm not trying to belittle the work people do in order to keep Torah and mitzvot, but it's not like life doesn't get hard for the rest of the world too.
Pickle, are you comparing kids living in a battle zone with kids in brooklyn?
Some of the American mothers on this board on the whole seem a lot more into needing their own physical comfort than Israeli mothers of the same age, and do come over as a lot more spoiled in terms of dealing with their own needs than do many of the Israelis that I know.
Same goes for Israeli grandmothers of 60. I know so many of them helping their children out physically full time with grandchildren. Heck, my machatenister takes a bus for an hour both ways two days a week to different children to babysit full days for a bunch of grandchildren after gan and school, until nine of clock in the evening. That includes giving a bunch of kids lunch, playing with them, changing diapers (2.5 year olds), giving them a bath and putting them to bed after supper.
And she is 75 bit hindred und tzvanzig!
To me at least that's normal. Here, lots of grandparents do "camp saba and savta" for two to three weeks a summer full time, eight to ten hours a day or sometimes full weeks with sleepovers for up to six grandchildren at a time! That "camp" includes children from the minute they are weaned until their late teens with everything in between. In my geriatric building alone where we usually have only about twelve kids (who live there with their families) we already have at least 30 kids (and boy can you hear it in the hall and see it in the garden downstairs) and these are the weeks that the kaytanot still work! I can only imagine what it is going to be like here after tisha be'av when there are no more kaytanot. Probably we will have something like 70 kids in the building all day. I already hear the babies screaming at night (mothers who aren't nursing and passed over the babies to their parents - my age and older)...I can't WAIT until my grandson can sleep over and have already told my daughter in law to get used to the idea of pumping and leaving us two days of milk so that we can have our granddaughter during the summer and they can get away from everything for a shabbos and just sleep and sleep and sleep...what fun for us! And yes, my husband is almost 60...so? I know people, men, who are in their 50s here and have newborn babies of their own if they have a younger wife...
From the way many people see it mothers are supposed to be able to handle their children. If they can't and their children are just normal kids and not ill and the mothers are not ill, either physically or mentally, then there is something wrong. Just because a woman has a uterus doesn't automatically make her fit to be a mother and just because someone is 60 it doesn't mean she has no strength.
Do you people know unfortunately how many children here whose parents were killed in piguim are being raised by grandparents? Lots. Unfortunately. And you find the strength..
I'm not so sure that camp is "all about the kids".
Someone should do a poll here - do those who send their kids at young ages to school/camp/playgroup also have cleaning help/go for manicures/dinners out and takeout food ?
I don't have a cleaning lady. I don't get manicures. I can't say we never go out or have takeout, but we're not doing it all the time.
But I sent to half-day preschool when she was 3.5, because she was an only child and I thought it would be good for her. Now she's off school, and she asks when she can go back (which she'll do for 4 weeks), because she is lonely--and no matter how much I try to entertain her, it's not the same.
Maybe in some communities, sending is just about peer pressure, but it isn't always.
We don't take tzedaka, this is just something we had to budget for, but I do resent the "why can't you take care of your kid all summer; you wanted to be a SAHM" logic. If I had no choice, I could. But day camp for a preschooler is not such a terrible expense that I can't budget a little and make both of us happier.
I understand you, but the game is not fair when you compare frum mothers with not frum mothers. In the frum world, life is more stressful, bigger families, Shabbos, Yomim Tovim, keeping halachos of kashrus, tznius etc. make life more hectic. A lot of frum people won't let their kids watch videos, go to the beach, etc.
That's such a negative view .
And IME, not accurate.
Frum families aren't always bigger, even if they are frum SAHMs usually aren't home with more children than their non-frum counterparts, people who aren't Jewish have holidays too, people who aren't Jewish have to cook and clean on Saturdays, and I have no idea why keeping kashrut or tzniut would make life more difficult, practically speaking (emotionally, sure, if you're used to tank tops it might be an adjustment - but those extra few inches of fabric don't make the shirt any more expensive or difficult to put on).
I'm not trying to belittle the work people do in order to keep Torah and mitzvot, but it's not like life doesn't get hard for the rest of the world too.
I really didn't want to come across as negative. I was trying to defend the accusation that frum mothers are more spoiled and whiney than non - Jewish mothers.
Sounds like you should move out of the city Mama Bear! Seriously, try to take steps to move somewhere a little nicer. G-d willing you're family will grow and you'll be facing this same challenge for yrs to come.
I know just going to the park for a short bit can be too much effort but sometimes hanging out there fr longer periods makes it more worthwhile. You could try spending half days at the park which is what I did when I lived in the city for 10 yrs. We would pack tons of stuff to load up the stroller and walk to a large park (20 min walk). I'd pack food, of course, but even a towl to sit in and books for some down time in between running around. And one of our parks had sprinklers so it was free water play.
And some of you whose kids are a handful might see if hiring a mother's helper is realistic or affordable to go with you on outings, or help out on those days when you're at home. (Sorry, Gryp, I think I just became one of those old fogeys who came up with a brilliant duh suggestion, huh.)
Thank you for the thought, Pink. The truth is that if I bring one extra person in here, I'll scream. We're bumping into each other as it is already.
I just went AROUND THE CORNER with my two toddlers. I'm going to bite my tongue and just say I'm not doing that again in a very long while. Until I forget today.
So basically the only children worthy enough of tzedaka to go to camp are children in israel. Those families have no choice in where they live but families that live in NY have a choice and should move somewhere else.
American mothers in NY are often lazy and need to grow up (not all but only the ones with alot of kids that live in NYC). If you live in a highly suburban american area with basically a playground for a backyard then you are a tzedekas for being able to handle you children all day.
I am getting this right?
Yes, you did. I was going to say it, but what's the point?
Only people in Brooklyn have a choice to move. Not people in war zones. Love the logic.
. and I have too much to do. So that's it; Pier 6 will have to make do without us. I'll take him to the local playground soon & let him run under the sprinker.
I thought I was the older generation. I have a married daughter. But I also have a 4 year old. What am I, generationless - a classic?
CYLOR.
