When my husband and I decided to live our lives teaching Torah we knew that we would be living on a lower standard than most of our friends and we were very fine with that. What we did not know at the time was that some (not all) of our children would have needs (yes they are needs for them) because of peer pressure that we have a very hard time providing. So when a couple decides to move to a certain area they might not be given the nevuah to know that it will be very challenging 10 years down the road for one of their children. And ten years down the road one cannot just pick themselves up and start out somewhere all over again. It's not so simple.
Sorry, that is pretty basic. It is NOT in the realm of nevua!!! A couple should be VERY aware that it is difficult for kids to be the have-nots in their social circle. I agree that for some kids it's almost a need.
A young couple who moves to a neighbourhood where all the kids have private homes and swimming pools, for example, should realize that their kid will be miserable if he's the only one living in a tiny old flat. Unless he's one of those special kids with uber confidence who can be popular and happy never mind the socio-economic circumstances. But most kids? It's a recipe for disaster.
Now, I'm not talking about living in a heterogenous environment where some kids have swimming pools and some are on welfare and some in between. That's different. But when you place a kid in a homogenous well-to-do circle, where ALL the kids have private homes and pools and camp, and you cannot afford that lifestyle, your kid will be resentful. Again, unless he's blessed with a special personality, or maybe unless you can impress upon him that you are in kiruv and these things are frivolous.
I know many, many people who moved from places like Caesaria or Ra'anana or Ramat Aviv Gimmel because they realized their kids would always feel the lack. It can be done. I understand it's not so easy after you establish yourself somewhere. But it doesn't warrant asking for tzeddeka. Heck, half of Israel would move to Caesaria if they could get tzeddeka to fund camp and extras for them.
Last edited by Tablepoetry on Sun, Jul 03 2011, 2:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
All true, but peer pressure exists everywhere. And to put children in the first place into such a situation - when you know it will definitely exist on a large scale - has nothing to do with the particular make up of this or that child. I'm not talking special needs children, but definitely a situation which shouldnt come as a surprise...if it does, it means that such a parent really didn't take a good look at the potential repercussions of what could happen in such a situation...for that you don't need nevuah.
But here's another thing. Let's say it happens. People make mistakes. Is the way to rectify mistakes to ask for zedoko for your children's emotional needs while continuing in that same torah lifestyle without making changes in that? If you want to be nice about it and not say "the parents were fools to close their eyes to what could happen in the future with their kids", one could say in a much kinder way "It's like the Ribono Shel Olam changed what such a parent thought would be their "family plan" by giving them a situation to cope with.."
But in such a situation, before turning to zedoko, maybe the parents should reevaluate their "torah lifestyle" and make changes in it to pay for their children's needs - professionally and personally either in case of mother or father or both together, instead of turning to the community to solve their problem? The same, BTW actually holds true for special needs children...I know families where the mother wanted a bigger family but when along came a child with downs syndrome for example, she stopped there at five instead of going on to a bigger family because she knew she would need her strength to keep up what she has. Or another family whose child needed expensive after gan and after school treatments not covered by the "sal" here and the mother, although she had wanted to stay home, went back to work part time in the mornings while the kids were at school in order to pay for these treatments....
When my husband and I decided to live our lives teaching Torah we knew that we would be living on a lower standard than most of our friends and we were very fine with that. What we did not know at the time was that some (not all) of our children would have needs (yes they are needs for them) because of peer pressure that we have a very hard time providing. So when a couple decides to move to a certain area they might not be given the nevuah to know that it will be very challenging 10 years down the road for one of their children. And ten years down the road one cannot just pick themselves up and start out somewhere all over again. It's not so simple.
I get this.
Sorry, too many people have got mixed messages and either they didn't always make the "right" decisions (as in be engaged for a year, space your kids) or just the plain old right decisions, they're in a hole, and they need empathetic support and advice from people who take "lifnei eever" very seriously.
Pardon the rant. I don't want to add to the cynicism.
Last edited by PinkFridge on Sun, Jul 03 2011, 7:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
Pink you are 100% correct.
People make mistakes. We all make mistakes. And it is up to us to correct them as soon as we realize what the mistake is and what is needed. Sometimes we need help correcting the mistake at the beginning but the onus to fix it is on US and not on anyone else.
To me, turning to the community to "fix" my mistake as a permanent fix without taking a good close look at myself and my own lifestyle to see what can be changed by ME and NOW is a "quick fix" that is not a real solution. Especially if this is going to be an ongoing problem. This isn't a "zbeng vegamarnu" issue, as they call it in Ivrit, one with "swot, it's solved!" That can be if it's a one time thing that isn't about to happen over and over again. But when you have an ongoing situation it's time to step back and re-evaluate lifestyles, life choices, etc. You can't change the past but you can change the present and thus also the future.
Thank you for your honesty, Tablepoetry and Friedasima. We are blessed that many in our community have a closer understanding and appreciation for our work.
Shalhevet, in many ways, our kollel children are being raised with the acute awareness that we are not striving for the standards others may enjoy. There is a limit to how much a child can be denied. Our children didn't make this choice, and don't have to always bear dire consequences. Thay are different enough. They can go to kaitana in their kiruv school for 3 weeks till 1 pm. These are children, not martyrs.
This is also a very nice thing about Imamother: free food for thought. In this site, we can come across ideas/experiences that may have specific bearing on our own lives, even down the road. We can learn from the mistakes and experiences of others. We can hear a few sides to the same opinion. We can be introspective and see how different circumstances apply to us. We can also realize when we are being berated by older women who've BTDT and who lament "yeridat hadorot" which is a nice way of saying "lazy". By the same token, these same older woman can be lead to comprehend that some things have changed, and things which may seem as "yeridat hadorot" are just plain shifting of current reality.
This is also a very nice thing about Imamother: free food for thought. In this site, we can come across ideas/experiences that may have specific bearing on our own lives, even down the road. We can learn from the mistakes and experiences of others. We can hear a few sides to the same opinion. We can be introspective and see how different circumstances apply to us. We can also realize when we are being berated by older women who've BTDT and who lament "yeridat hadorot" which is a nice way of saying "lazy". By the same token, these same older woman can be lead to comprehend that some things have changed, and things which may seem as "yeridat hadorot" are just plain shifting of current reality.
Older women also have the opportunity to think: Gosh things have changed since I was that age, and realize that they are way out of league. Like tearing toilet paper for two hours. Hello, way out of touch. As much as an older group insists they've been-there-done-that, in my experience, they are projecting their own experiences and no way relating to mine. But it doesn't help to tell them that because they keep saying: "I remember...." and then if you keep them talking, you see that they aren't even on the same planet anymore.
This is also a very nice thing about Imamother: free food for thought. In this site, we can come across ideas/experiences that may have specific bearing on our own lives, even down the road. We can learn from the mistakes and experiences of others. We can hear a few sides to the same opinion. We can be introspective and see how different circumstances apply to us. We can also realize when we are being berated by older women who've BTDT and who lament "yeridat hadorot" which is a nice way of saying "lazy". By the same token, these same older woman can be lead to comprehend that some things have changed, and things which may seem as "yeridat hadorot" are just plain shifting of current reality.
Older women also have the opportunity to think: Gosh things have changed since I was that age, and realize that they are way out of league. Like tearing toilet paper for two hours. Hello, way out of touch. As much as an older group insists they've been-there-done-that, in my experience, they are projecting their own experiences and no way relating to mine. But it doesn't help to tell them that because they keep saying: "I remember...." and then if you keep them talking, you see that they aren't even on the same planet anymore.
Not you, Tamiri. I'm speaking generally.
Btw, this conversation reminds me of the line I hear typically from parents to their adult children: I'M RIGHT BECAUSE I'M OLDER!
Yeah, like that gets them anywhere. They'd like to think being older makes them right all the time but unfortunately it makes them less right than ever.
My kids cut toilet paper. I would not say it takes two hours. If done properly, 10 minutes. But, it's still something to do. FS is a tiny bit older than I am and her youngest is at least 15 years older than my youngest, so maybe she's forgotten some things LOL. However, that doesn't mean there isn't PLENTY for kids to do around the house. In fact, if you have a few kids closer in age, it's probably a HECK of a lot easier than I had it, with 4-5 years spacing with all 5 of my kids.
If all else fails, you pile the kids into the car twice/week and go to one of the nearby state parks. Easy access for people with a car anywhere near NY and NJ. Just throw the kids and some sandwiches in the car and drive.
If you don't have a car, there were plenty of suggestions for that too.
If you've read the thread you may want to consider where and how you live so that it's easier for the family in the future, even if you don't have money for camp...
Btw, this conversation reminds me of the line I hear typically from parents to their adult children: I'M RIGHT BECAUSE I'M OLDER!
Yeah, like that gets them anywhere. They'd like to think being older makes them right all the time but unfortunately it makes them less right than ever.
gryp, it's not the being older. It's the experience that comes with it. Experience does have greater value than inexperience.
My kids don't rip toilet paper. We buy tissues for Shabbos.
My in-laws and parents feel that my kids need to go to day camp. They also pay for it since we can't. This summer I have one dd in day camp for eight weeks, on ds with special needs in summer school for six weeks thanks to the board of ed paid for partly by our taxes, and a 2 1/2 yr old ds home with me.
I personally don't need ideas. Today's Sunday and all my kids are home and it's been raining all day so we've been indoors. We don't have much space or breathing room but we make do. I have 3 kids in camp (affordable) and 2 at home on weekdays.
Here's a little reminder for the older crowd who thinks cutting toilet paper is such a wonderful idea. If I ever gave my kids toilet paper to rip, they'd be done in 10 seconds and it would be me cleaning up the bits and pieces from all over, for a lot longer than the 10 minutes their activity is supposed to take. Kids like to do their own ideas not mine. Such as shred and spread. Who knows what else- get out scissors, crayons, and glue, soak the toilet paper in water or spit, stuff it under the couch cushions. Chew it like g um or stick it in each other's ears. Do I need to go on? Kids are kids and I'd rather not waste toilet paper.
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gryp, it's not the being older. It's the experience that comes with it. Experience does have greater value than inexperience.
Right. I seem to have heard that before. That's why the toilet paper is a great activity. You can see for yourself that there's experience and then there's experience. One type mostly never counts and the other type is what I do with my kids each day.
I don't mean to be rude, mocking, or insulting. I'm simply saying it how it is. The older generation doesn't like to hear it, so at least I have a place to write it. Free exchange of ideas here.
One of the nice things of getting older is that you have grandchildren. And that really brings you close to seeing what is going on today. I see my grandson at two and a half taking two hours, on and off, doing other things in between to neatly tear the family's rolls of toilet paper for shabbat every friday. For him it's a fun game, My daughter is either cooking or doing something right next to him, he sits or kneels on the chair next to the table and makes a game of neatly folding each piece one on top of the other, just like his uncles used to do at that age, at four, at five etc. At the end of the rolls when everything is in place and he and Ima put the toilet paper box into the bathroom for shabbat he gets a big kiss and a treat for being such a helpful boy. Yes, it means that mommy has to be around but she can do other things and talk to him and they listen to music and it keeps him busy. Soon when mommy has another baby she will be able to sit and nurse the baby next to him while he "plays" at lets tear the paper neatly for shabbat and make straight piles of it in the box.
In that, like in so many other things, nothing has changed in my family in the past 25 years.
Lots of things around us can change. But human nature doesn't. The stressed out remain stressed out. The lazy often remain lazy, and the diligent and organized are diligent and organized. There were people like that thirty years ago, fifty years ago, and probably five hundred years ago too.
Building on human nature, it is natural for people to see something they disagree with and comment. And it's also natural when some of the comments come from people of a different generation for younger people to brush it off saying "what do those old fogies know, life is different!". The young have always done it, and then, time passes, they get older, they are more experienced and the new generation brushes them off.
But when you look back at a few generations you realize that the things which are the impetii for life remain the same. Desire for an easier life, desire for more personal posessions, desire to "fit in" to your surroundings either emotionally, socially, financially or whatever, and so on. So what exacly doesn't apply from a previous generation? The fact that kids today are so hyped up that they live on "sound bytes"? Well turns out that not all do, depends on how they are raised.
No one is right because they are older. But when you see someone who had managed to get their act together, have enough money to cover their needs and more, is pretty satisfied with their life, is a responsible adult and has raised other responsible adults...maybe, just maybe, there is something one can learn from their life experience.
But here's the bottom line. When you are coming to that person for a handout to pay for YOUR needs - which is what this thread was all about - you can't expect to take their money and spit on them at the same time. Remember, no one here said that camp is bad, or that no one should go to camp, the topic being discussed is asking for handouts to pay for one's kids camp. There is no such thing as "no strings attached" in this world, even if people tell you differently. Sometimes the strings are invisible, sometimes not.
Gryp it appears from your posts that you have a real problem with the cutting toilet paper business or from someone over the age of 40 stating an opinion saying that if they and their kids could be responsible then others can as well. Why does that bother you so much? And does it bother you so much when other posters who are younger, such as Barbara, say exactly the same thing?
You know it's possible for younger and older posters to feel the same way about the same issue, not because it comes from age, but from hashkofo. And hashkofo is timeless and ageless and is not connected necessarily to a particular generation. Some of us are espousing the hashkofo of personal responsibility and saying that Jewish collective responsibility should only pick up when it is beyond the circumstances of someone to deal with something although he/she tried to use his personal responsibility to care for it, but it didnt work out. Not when someone milechaschila abdicates personal responsibility, making choices for which they dont want to pay the price and then saying that Jewish collective responsibility MUST care for them and solve their problems.
And if your kids are so hyped up that they will destroy the toilet paper even if you are sitting right there with them all the time, well maybe there are other things they can do around the house to help and keep busy.....but bottom line, if all they can do is destroy, over and over, maybe re-check your parenting methods unless you have three kids who are add or adhd or whatever. We aren't talking about that you know...
This is also a very nice thing about Imamother: free food for thought. In this site, we can come across ideas/experiences that may have specific bearing on our own lives, even down the road. We can learn from the mistakes and experiences of others. We can hear a few sides to the same opinion. We can be introspective and see how different circumstances apply to us. We can also realize when we are being berated by older women who've BTDT and who lament "yeridat hadorot" which is a nice way of saying "lazy". By the same token, these same older woman can be lead to comprehend that some things have changed, and things which may seem as "yeridat hadorot" are just plain shifting of current reality.
Older women also have the opportunity to think: Gosh things have changed since I was that age, and realize that they are way out of league. Like tearing toilet paper for two hours. Hello, way out of touch. As much as an older group insists they've been-there-done-that, in my experience, they are projecting their own experiences and no way relating to mine. But it doesn't help to tell them that because they keep saying: "I remember...." and then if you keep them talking, you see that they aren't even on the same planet anymore.
Not you, Tamiri. I'm speaking generally.
One of my favorite cartoons: When I was your age I had to walk all the way across an unheated floor to switch the channel by hand.
I personally don't need ideas. Today's Sunday and all my kids are home and it's been raining all day so we've been indoors. We don't have much space or breathing room but we make do. I have 3 kids in camp (affordable) and 2 at home on weekdays.
Here's a little reminder for the older crowd who thinks cutting toilet paper is such a wonderful idea. If I ever gave my kids toilet paper to rip, they'd be done in 10 seconds and it would be me cleaning up the bits and pieces from all over, for a lot longer than the 10 minutes their activity is supposed to take. Kids like to do their own ideas not mine. Such as shred and spread. Who knows what else- get out scissors, crayons, and glue, soak the toilet paper in water or spit, stuff it under the couch cushions. Chew it like g um or stick it in each other's ears. Do I need to go on? Kids are kids and I'd rather not waste toilet paper.
Quote:
gryp, it's not the being older. It's the experience that comes with it. Experience does have greater value than inexperience.
Right. I seem to have heard that before. That's why the toilet paper is a great activity. You can see for yourself that there's experience and then there's experience. One type mostly never counts and the other type is what I do with my kids each day.
I don't mean to be rude, mocking, or insulting. I'm simply saying it how it is. The older generation doesn't like to hear it, so at least I have a place to write it. Free exchange of ideas here.
Tsk. In MY day, that would be the perfect segueway for papier mache, hours of fun! ( Yeah, right , as if I ever did that.)
Not to state the obvious, but different kids are different. Even within the range of non-disordered.
I have one kid who would rip the toilet paper neatly while either making up a bizarre and complex story involving toilet paper or engaging me in a discussion about how toilet paper is made that would launch into how toilets are made, etc...
One who would try to rip the paper neatly, but in the middle somewhere would probably either mis-rip a piece and start crying, fall off her chair and start crying, or wander off to look for a snack.
And one who would rip the toilet paper with great enthusiasm and very little attention to where it was going post-rip.
Some of that is age, but a lot is also just - different kids. I see already how the things that were great with one child at one age, are terrible for another child at the same age (eg. my child who could play happily with dry beans for 20 minutes or more as a baby, vs. my child who couldn't be trusted with anything that size).
Exactly ora, so if it doesn't work for someone's kid don't say it won't work for everyone and find something else personality suited that you kids can do to help around the house, learn something at the same time about family responsibility, and pass the time creatively! But I don't buy the answer from women who have chosen to be SAHM's and kvetch "I have GOT to get my kids out all the time othewise I can't cope ever" if they are normal kids...
Want to hear adorable? When my oldest son was 3 or 4, he walked into our home with a broken umbrella. Without a word, he proceded to take the whole thing apart in an extremely exacting manner, leaving the top intact. He was left with a plie of metal pieces. This thrilled him, and occupied him for about 2 hours.
He would also watch the construction of a shul outside his bedroom window. This took about 6 years.
Using my kids as an example, there is plenty for kids to do at home. My 8 year old was punished for certain behavior on Shabbos, and I gave him an opportunity to change that. He agreed to a short parsha shiur by me, and suggested that I give him 5 questions for him to answer in writing.
My children do lots of creative stuff. But summer days are long, and independent projects can't be the rule 24/7. Mommy camp can happen, but can't happen 24/7. My kids, and many others, need more.
Just because some parents may have less money, does not mean that their kids are better equipped than most to deal.
Yeah, right 
, as if I ever did that.)
