FS: big difference between never coping and not coping with kid home and friendsless 2 months...
I do agree it does not take a village- but how better!
Why weak?
Religious answer: yeridas hadoros
Natural answer: medicine, more kids surviving, less survival of the fittest. And BH!
Choosing to cope with health problems: sometimes your doctor does not want you to "cope". Or you think a bit and... Who will take care of the kids if you faint?
Clay and scissor camps: yes it works. Because kids have same age playmates. My dd will go to such a camp for the 2nd yr, not out of belief or anything, but because the expensive camp with eurodisney etc has a much more modern (and also wilder) crowd. In her age group she was the only except 1 other with tights, many kipa less boys, it took the cake when she won the tefila prize against the whole age group incl. 5 YR OLD BOYS (she was 3) she left that day. I vented on fb and a mora told me of a small frummer camp lol.
We have stamina to use exercise bicycles, run on treadmills, join marathons, weight lift
Lots of us know how to make bread from scratch like our great grandmothers
Lots of us like Seraph know how to use natural ingredients to clean our homes, our clothes, and how to live in peace with our surroundings. Lots of us know how to pinch pennies, although we don't do it on a full time basis many of us know how to sew our own clothes, how to knit and crochet sweaters
We have stamina to use exercise bicycles, run on treadmills, join marathons, weight lift
Lots of us know how to make bread from scratch like our great grandmothers
Lots of us like Seraph know how to use natural ingredients to clean our homes, our clothes, and how to live in peace with our surroundings. Lots of us know how to pinch pennies, although we don't do it on a full time basis many of us know how to sew our own clothes, how to knit and crochet sweaters
Lol that one is highly cultural!
yeah - I wonder how many "lots" are really included in all these categories? I certainly don't have stamina; another may have stamina, but not know how to pinch pennies. again it's a matter of judging everyone by the same yardstick.
I agree completely, but I hear the drumbeat of "camp is a necessity" far, far more often from rabbonim, ravs, Rebbes, principals, and other experts in chinuch (both real and soi-disant) than I hear it from SAHMs or even mothers with outside jobs.
Given the status of the people who extol the importance of camp, I hardly think it's fair to blame women for buying into the idea, even partially, that camp is a necessity.
This is a good point. I think a lot of us aren't aware of those pressures. Pressure to send kids to camp isn't really a thing in a lot of places - not in Israel (except for some schools with mandatory "camp"), not in many small US Jewish communities.
So if a mother from NYC or another major US Jewish community talks about why camp is necessary in her eyes but doesn't mention rabbis, we're not going to know that rabbis had anything to do with it, we'll assume the explanation given (heat, bored kids, etc) is all there is.
"And it means that you don't have time for yourself, so what? And it means that you end up yelling at your kids from frustration, so what?'
That's not good enough anymore. Women and families deserve to be emotionally healthy.
A SAHM has to fit in the same things she does all year, in the summer. It's not like there is extra time and energy to add in kids home all day.
I did Mommy camp today for 5 kids (day camp starts on Sunday). It takes a LOT of energy...and it's what, 2 PM? Yeah. I'm putting a DVD in this computer now for them.
Ora that's an interesting point and it can be expanded to fit lots of other issues in the frum community. Who are the ones telling women that they should expect X amount of jewelry and presents when they get engaged or married? Who is the one telling chossens that they should expect silver ornaments from the in laws when he is engaged? And who is the one telling parents that if they don't give their kids X, Y , and Z their cildren will be deprived?
Part of it at least in the shtark MO community is that the people running the camps during the summer and making a good living from them are some of the same mechanchim who are pushing camp all year long. but it's not only in America. Here in my local yerushalayim school the husband of one of the teachers ran a three week day camp that most of the kids from the school went to. Mine didn't. And I told the teacher straight out at the beginning of the year that my kids are not going to camp and she should know it and I really don't want to hear from them that there was any propaganda in class or subtle pressure that if the kids don't go to camp the attitude towards them will be...or that the next year when she will be mechanechet of my next child there will be an attitude because her older sibling didn't go to the (mixed) camp...
I'm formidable when I get riled up. she got the message. But I heard from other mothers about the subtle pressure of "if your child isn't going then he/she is going to be a pariah, they won't have the skills that we teach them at camp and then how will they cope the next school year?"
Balderdash. A good mother giving them skills at home outdoes most camps unless of course like Ruchel says, the camp is taking you to Eurodisney three times a week.
Chapeau - kudos' Ruchel for finding Mati a good and suitable gan and giving her a good Jewish education. I agree that staying home full time with kids is not for everyone even if they themselves aren't working, but then again, I don't think that "bachayim" - in your whole life - you would ever asking for a handout, zedoko, from people so that you could send Mati to summer camp!
Whoever really wants to cut toilet paper (and by the way, frum companies have been manufacturing special Shabbos toilet paper for years) can use a scissors to get the task done faster. I'm sure my kids would figure this out if they were forced to tear two squares at a time. (When my son had to write "I will not be chutzpadig to the rebbe" 200 times, he attempted to use the copier on the fax machine.)
my kids prefer all the pieces to be the same size, so they insist on doing it by hand (3 sq. at a time)
[should we start a new thread on this?]
And does it still take 2 hours? The previous post was an answer to a pretty good thought by Friedasima, with some good suggestions of what kids can do, but not the most realistic of times of how long the kids might actually be engaged in such activities.
I agree completely, but I hear the drumbeat of "camp is a necessity" far, far more often from rabbonim, ravs, Rebbes, principals, and other experts in chinuch (both real and soi-disant) than I hear it from SAHMs or even mothers with outside jobs.
Given the status of the people who extol the importance of camp, I hardly think it's fair to blame women for buying into the idea, even partially, that camp is a necessity.
And that's actually what bothers me most about the discussion; it appears to me that women are simply an easier target on which to vent aggravation or disapproval over the whole system. After all, no one is going to say, "Well, I don't care if your rav said that camp was a necessity for everyone. He's wrong!" So instead, we play the "princess" card!
Like many de facto customs in the frum world, the summer camp issue definitely bears closer examination, especially when so many people are financially strapped. But accusing people of a sense of entitlement seems unfair when their "entitlement" is a result of having been given that advice by those in their community with daas Torah.
and lest you think this beautiful beautiful child is ch'v horribly grotesque and malformed, here is a link to his recent pre-upsherin picture that my sister took in prospect park. I am not posting it here, just a link if you bother to click. He is KE"h beautiful inside and out... May HaShem bestow on him the little pieces that are missing for him to be fully functional....
His older brother isnt hard on the eyes either, BH. I may vent here, I may portray them as draining and high maintenance and diffiuclt and all that, but truthfully, it's the stress and hectic-ness of the past few weeks and months speaking. They are kE"H true nachas, each in their own unique way.
I am so glad I can open these! What a great way to start the day. I know what you've been through to get here.
As an aside, not to hijack things, I know what your supper expectations are, but do you have anything in your repertoire that you yourself can make that's simpler, and less draining?
Can we get to the point where everyone has a bunch of issues that would never be clear to anyone else unless one "walked a mile in their shoes" and say:
For some people camp is necessary. Without camp their children are likely to be left alone for long hours of the day or mix with bad company or suffer in different ways.
For some people camp is not necessary.
Homeschooling sort of just drifts into summer so we don't really have the bored problem. Kids just do what they always do. Occasionally we get the I'm bored, but not so often.
But my needs and the needs of my family are different than someone else's needs.
Some might question my stated "need." Well good for them. They aren't in my shoes. To give an essay explaining the psycho/physical whatever reason behind a particular need is exhausting and often non-productive. Sometimes issues aren't easily condensed into a few sentences.
So it doesn't make me ill that some say "they need camp and will fund raise for it", because me and my pocketbook can decide if that is an issue we wish to support. I prefer other issues. I don't think there is anything wrong in asking as long as one isn't taking advantage of someone by asking (person can't say no for whatever reason or one lies in some form or another.)
Can we get to the point where everyone has a bunch of issues that would never be clear to anyone else unless one "walked a mile in their shoes" and say:
For some people camp is necessary. Without camp their children are likely to be left alone for long hours of the day or mix with bad company or suffer in different ways.
For some people camp is not necessary.
Homeschooling sort of just drifts into summer so we don't really have the bored problem. Kids just do what they always do. Occasionally we get the I'm bored, but not so often.
But my needs and the needs of my family are different than someone else's needs.
Some might question my stated "need." Well good for them. They aren't in my shoes. To give an essay explaining the psycho/physical whatever reason behind a particular need is exhausting and often non-productive. Sometimes issues aren't easily condensed into a few sentences.
So it doesn't make me ill that some say "they need camp and will fund raise for it", because me and my pocketbook can decide if that is an issue we wish to support. I prefer other issues. I don't think there is anything wrong in asking as long as one isn't taking advantage of someone by asking (person can't say no for whatever reason or one lies in some form or another.)
Pink that exactly part of the story. First people set themselves up that they have to serve four course meals during the week and then they say they are exhausted. Betach they are exhausted! Do like me. Make lots of chicken and kigel and roasted potatoes and sweet potatoes and chicken soup or vegetable soup and rice and cake for shabbos. One big cooking evening. And then eat it all week long. You know the song "zintig bubbelch, muntig bubbelech, diensttig mitvoch bubbelach" (sunday potatoes, monday potatoes, tuesday wednesday po-taaaaa-toes" an old Yiddish song from my grandmother's generation)...well that's how we live and the kids and dh are fine with it. If they don't like it? There is always bread and chumus or fruit and eggs that they can make themselves or I can whip up in a minute. Nice and nutritious.
but if all you have to do for lunch is give a sandwich and for supper heat up the chicken soup and roast chicken and rice and roast potatoes and sweet potatoes and fresh salad and cake....it's a good meal and if you want only rice and chicken soup that's fine too...and you don't have to cook more than once a week. If it's gone by tuesday night then wednesday serve eggs and cheese and bread for supper and thursday you already have chicken soup ready again...
Make life simple.
Declutter
Don't keep around the kind of food that kid would even dream of throwing around. Cheerios? Who in the world needs cheerios. Bread and white cheese. apples and cucumbers Ever see kids throw around bread and white cheese or sprinkle it on the sofa? Unlike the cheerios story.
O Lord lead us not into temptation...(don't ask for the makor you don't want to know)
HR sounds good in theory but in our lovely Jewish commuinties where everyone alwyas has their long Jewish nose in their neighbor's pot and blasts it all over the kehilla, what a person chooses to do or not do when it comes to giving zedoko is not just their personal issue. What about these community "drives" where a person is made to feel a pariah if they aren't willing to give to a particular cause? Don't tell me that your shul has never forced something like that on you?! If not, you are a lucky woman.
FR: generally no. I know what we have in the bank, or better put, how in the negative we are, and giving when I can't is not moral. I do give tzeddakah to those who hold out their hands on the street. A shekel here or a half a shekel if I can't give more... occasionally two. But I will not feel guilty for saying no when I really can't. Mostly we eat whatever is leftover from Shabbat, potatoes and eggs, or rice and eggs. I mean we just don't have it.
We don't have the money to fix the plumbing, the electricity, see the eye doctor or dentist. Shabbat for the four of us is often one chicken, made to do soup, and two meals and hopefully last a bit through the next week...difficult when one is talking about two adults and two teens.
So I'm not going to feel guilty because I have to say no.
Pink that exactly part of the story. First people set themselves up that they have to serve four course meals during the week and then they say they are exhausted. Betach they are exhausted! Do like me. Make lots of chicken and kigel and roasted potatoes and sweet potatoes and chicken soup or vegetable soup and rice and cake for shabbos. One big cooking evening. And then eat it all week long. You know the song "zintig bubbelch, muntig bubbelech, diensttig mitvoch bubbelach" (sunday potatoes, monday potatoes, tuesday wednesday po-taaaaa-toes" an old Yiddish song from my grandmother's generation)...well that's how we live and the kids and dh are fine with it. If they don't like it? There is always bread and chumus or fruit and eggs that they can make themselves or I can whip up in a minute. Nice and nutritious.
Don't keep around the kind of food that kid would even dream of throwing around. Cheerios? Who in the world needs cheerios. Bread and white cheese. apples and cucumbers Ever see kids throw around bread and white cheese or sprinkle it on the sofa? Unlike the cheerios story.
O Lord lead us not into temptation...(don't ask for the makor you don't want to know)
WADR, it's one thing to have leftovers from Shabbos one day, repurpose them the next, but to eat Shabbos food all week long makes the Shabbos food seem less special. Just my humble opinion.
As for Cheerios, I hear you but maybe this is part of the American kool aid, but what a mechaya to pop a kid in the high chair and let him/her be busy eating and playing for a while. The kuntz is to keep the Cheerios out of reach.
Re "lead us not into temptation": I just said the words this morning, "al Tevianu lo lidei chait."
Pink that exactly part of the story. First people set themselves up that they have to serve four course meals during the week and then they say they are exhausted. Betach they are exhausted! Do like me. Make lots of chicken and kigel and roasted potatoes and sweet potatoes and chicken soup or vegetable soup and rice and cake for shabbos. One big cooking evening. And then eat it all week long. You know the song "zintig bubbelch, muntig bubbelech, diensttig mitvoch bubbelach" (sunday potatoes, monday potatoes, tuesday wednesday po-taaaaa-toes" an old Yiddish song from my grandmother's generation)...well that's how we live and the kids and dh are fine with it. If they don't like it? There is always bread and chumus or fruit and eggs that they can make themselves or I can whip up in a minute. Nice and nutritious.
Don't keep around the kind of food that kid would even dream of throwing around. Cheerios? Who in the world needs cheerios. Bread and white cheese. apples and cucumbers Ever see kids throw around bread and white cheese or sprinkle it on the sofa? Unlike the cheerios story.
O Lord lead us not into temptation...(don't ask for the makor you don't want to know)
WADR, it's one thing to have leftovers from Shabbos one day, repurpose them the next, but to eat Shabbos food all week long makes the Shabbos food seem less special. Just my humble opinion.
As for Cheerios, I hear you but maybe this is part of the American kool aid, but what a mechaya to pop a kid in the high chair and let him/her be busy eating and playing for a while. The kuntz is to keep the Cheerios out of reach.
Re "lead us not into temptation": I just said the words this morning, "al Tevianu lo lidei...nisayon."
I know that's the original makor but I love the way you "megayered" the posuk!
Cheerios. I grew up in America, remember?
but I guess we never had cereal either. We were a european family and those don't know from cold american breakfast cereals. Winter was cooked oatmeal. Summer was bread and a yoghurt. And if I had EVER thrown a piece of food my mother would have reminded me about my father in auschwitz who would have begged for a crust of dry moldy bread if it has existed.
I told my kids the same about their zeide. They knew even at two that food was holy. You don't throw it. If a piece of bread hits the floor you pick it up and kiss it. Yes yes.
To this day nothing gets thrown out. If milk is sour my husband reminds that it can be made into yoghurt. If a fruit is soft or even moldy you can cut around and cook as compote. Stuff goes straight into the freezer so that it won't rot and you take out what you need. I have ogmas nefesh seeing the amount of garbage, organic peels, and wish we had a compost heap. I'm just afraid that for my birthday next week the kids, who know how I feel and feel the same way, are going to convince the neighbors to let us start a compost heap in the garden downstairs and then guess who is going to be responsible for it?!
I know that's the original makor but I love the way you "megayered" the posuk!
Cheerios. I grew up in America, remember?
but I guess we never had cereal either. We were a european family and those don't know from cold american breakfast cereals. Winter was cooked oatmeal. Summer was bread and a yoghurt. And if I had EVER thrown a piece of food my mother would have reminded me about my father in auschwitz who would have begged for a crust of dry moldy bread if it has existed.
I told my kids the same about their zeide. They knew even at two that food was holy. You don't throw it. If a piece of bread hits the floor you pick it up and kiss it. Yes yes.
To this day nothing gets thrown out. If milk is sour my husband reminds that it can be made into yoghurt. If a fruit is soft or even moldy you can cut around and cook as compote. Stuff goes straight into the freezer so that it won't rot and you take out what you need. I have ogmas nefesh seeing the amount of garbage, organic peels, and wish we had a compost heap. I'm just afraid that for my birthday next week the kids, who know how I feel and feel the same way, are going to convince the neighbors to let us start a compost heap in the garden downstairs and then guess who is going to be responsible for it?!
Vey vey vey
FS, this is TOTALLY OT, but I thought what you wrote here was interesting
My grandparents, also from europe, always, every morning, had cheerios for breakfast, except sundays when they had lox and bagels. So intersesting
Thank you for saying it better.
sounds like true ahavas yisroel to me.
