It's Shabbos in Israel already....if not, don't ask what reply you'd get over these statements....Some Israelis claim that if a teenager can't be trusted to just spend a summer out of a structured program without parental supervision, then the parents failed in raising them since they never had this issue with their kids...
Wanna see? Wait till Shabbos is over in EY.....
You were suggesting that teenagers can't be trusted to be home even for an hour or two here and there on a regular basis. That's pretty different from all day, all summer.
And the main counter-argument wasn't that teens can be trusted, it was that you don't have the power to stop them getting into trouble simply by staying home with them and/or sending them out. Even to a structured program.
Anyhow, if the mother is a SAHM, then she's home all day to babysit all the teens that can't be trusted, no? So why the need to send to a structured program?
FTR, I am not even aware of any camps for teens. OK, there are some super-expensive amazing camps that usually focus on a specific area (say, soccer camp - costs 2500 NIS for 5 days - where the kids learn with a coach, or scuba diving camp, or the like). But regular day camp or regular sleep-away camp for teens? Beyond the 3 day Bnei Akiva trip? Never heard of it. I can't imagine many teens would want to go, it doesn't seem 'cool' enough, no teen wants to feel like they need to be babysat.
So are there places where there are modest, affordable camps for teens? I'm not referring to a 'meeting' twice a week, as I've been told happens sometimes for BY girls - but full time camp. Does it exist for teens? Or are we just referring to another month of learning for boys? And what about the girls? Don't they get into trouble without 'a structured program'?
The programs for teens I know of tend to be really expensive camps - after 10th grade, most of my class went on trips to Israel. There are also touring camps like Achva - they tour the US, Europe, Australia, Israel etc.
On another note - pickle lady, the martyr act gets old pretty quickly. Is it hard to be alone with no family? yes. Are you the only one like that? no. others do it too and they manage because they have to. that's life.
My favorite is hearing that from spoiled little brats.
I recently heard that the latest craze is moving into 3 room apartments, eating in the tiny kitchen and transforming the dining room to a kids room.
Yup... unfortunately more and more common to use living/dining room as parents room or kids room or boys/girls room...
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By teen I'm assuming you mean 14. How Bout get them a job? Many of my friends (including me) started working at 14, especially in the summer.
It may not be legal everywhere.
About free time, discipline: I agree, it's a bigger and bigger problem. I think some people were brainwashed by 60's "special snowflake" education
For info, not all Antwerp chassidim want to keep their kids with them during the vacations. I don't have any number, but certainly not all. And some are more modern and allow more activities, too.
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Watch out FS, because now you are indirectly beginning to blame our previous chassidishe rebbes, post war EUROPE, tzaddikim and gedolim they were. It was THEY who founded the camps and had the boys and girls relocate to the mountains, and it is their current successors who encourage the "pilgrimage".
I do wonder when and how it started!
The (Yekke, JPF) Yechouroun camps started in 1938. Activities started in 1926.
I've been following this thread and it seems obvious some mothers just want to complain, complain, complain. They are not interested in ideas or suggestions. They have decided they cannot handle their children (poor children) because they live in Brooklyn and just want to state that over and over again and insist that everyone else "doesn't understand".
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Excuse me? You were following a different thread, if you can make these allegations! All we were trying to do was EXPLAIN, EXPLAIN, EXPLAIN, why camp is a default necessity by some groups of yidden. But since you weren't concentrating, I'll try to say it in VERY short.
A) Boys in the city HAVE NO OPTION of staying home, the whole cheder/yeshivah relocates to the mountains.
B) Suburban boys don't have camps, so they stay put in their continuous 12 month learning year, or a summer cheder program which is a cheder model supplemented with activities.
C) City girls have a choice. BUT, if their mothers work, or are home running a large household, they are kind of stuck. Part of being chassidish is being insular. So pacing the parks and museums without proper adult escort is a huge no no for ruchnius and gashmius reasons.
D) Leaving teens home alone for extended hours of time alone is very not encouraged in our communities.
E) Suburban girls join city girls in camp if they can afford it or if there's good reason why the girl can't stay home.
So while most ideas and suggestion would work in Israel or for non-chassidish families, I fail to see one suggestion that was applicable.
A) Boys in the city HAVE NO OPTION of staying home, the whole cheder/yeshivah relocates to the mountains.
B) Suburban boys don't have camps, so they stay put in their continuous 12 month learning year, or a summer cheder program which is a cheder model supplemented with activities.
C) City girls have a choice. BUT, if their mothers work, or are home running a large household, they are kind of stuck. Part of being chassidish is being insular. So pacing the parks and museums without proper adult escort is a huge no no for ruchnius and gashmius reasons.
D) Leaving teens home alone for extended hours of time alone is very not encouraged in our communities.
E) Suburban girls join city girls in camp if they can afford it or if there's good reason why the girl can't stay home.
So while most ideas and suggestion would work in Israel or for non-chassidish families, I fail to see one suggestion that was applicable.
I really appreciate this succinct explanation, for those of us with shorter attention spans. Now I can better understand the issue.
A) Boys in the city HAVE NO OPTION of staying home, the whole cheder/yeshivah relocates to the mountains.
B) Suburban boys don't have camps, so they stay put in their continuous 12 month learning year, or a summer cheder program which is a cheder model supplemented with activities.
C) City girls have a choice. BUT, if their mothers work, or are home running a large household, they are kind of stuck. Part of being chassidish is being insular. So pacing the parks and museums without proper adult escort is a huge no no for ruchnius and gashmius reasons.
D) Leaving teens home alone for extended hours of time alone is very not encouraged in our communities.
E) Suburban girls join city girls in camp if they can afford it or if there's good reason why the girl can't stay home.
So while most ideas and suggestion would work in Israel or for non-chassidish families, I fail to see one suggestion that was applicable.
I really appreciate this succinct explanation, for those of us with shorter attention spans. Now I can better understand the issue.
A) Boys in the city HAVE NO OPTION of staying home, the whole cheder/yeshivah relocates to the mountains.
B) Suburban boys don't have camps, so they stay put in their continuous 12 month learning year, or a summer cheder program which is a cheder model supplemented with activities.
C) City girls have a choice. BUT, if their mothers work, or are home running a large household, they are kind of stuck. Part of being chassidish is being insular. So pacing the parks and museums without proper adult escort is a huge no no for ruchnius and gashmius reasons.
D) Leaving teens home alone for extended hours of time alone is very not encouraged in our communities.
E) Suburban girls join city girls in camp if they can afford it or if there's good reason why the girl can't stay home.
So while most ideas and suggestion would work in Israel or for non-chassidish families, I fail to see one suggestion that was applicable.
I really appreciate this succinct explanation, for those of us with shorter attention spans. Now I can better understand the issue.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. I think it is borderline child abuse to leave a teen home for 10 weeks for nothing to do. They will find something to do, and trust me, chances are you wont like it. A few weeks here and there, when there are PEERS who are normal (not just at risk teens who no camp will accept or don't want to be in camp because of the rules or what not) is fine. No one needs to be entertained all day, all the time. But there is a strong social element here that is being disregarded. Teenagers will find friends because they need them and if most of the normal kids are away for part of the summer, they will befriend whomever is around. Of course very few teenagers will go to camp (I'm talking about overnight) for longer than 4 weeks. They will spend the rest of the time with family, visiting family and friends or get a job. But 10 weeks is too long. Way too long. So for a teenager, yes I would be more inclined to contribute or help organize a scholarship.
But if no teenagers were in camp, why would it be a problem to have them home for all 10 weeks? "Not in camp" doesn't have to mean "at home doing nothing." They could get a job. Or do volunteer work. Or take summer classes.
I agree with you that it's a problem to have teens home if you don't like the influence of the only other teens who are home, but it sounds like you're saying it'd be a problem even if all the teens ("good" and "bad" kids both) are not in camp.
I also still don't understand what a "teen camp" would even do. Most of what I think of as "camp" activities seem too young for kids that age. Most camps I'm familiar with go from age 9-13 or so, maybe 8-14, but there's no such thing as normal camp for a 15 or 16 year old, people that age can apply as staff already but not regular campers.
Wouldn't it be more appropriate for teens that age to have more responsibility than they do as campers, particularly given that in the communities you're talking about, they'll be expected to be ready for dating/marriage just 3-4 years later?
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I also believe that if a community standard/value system is such that people should have large families and that they should be in a structured social environment for much of the summer, then they need to support and back that value either by hugely subsidized programs or scholarships.
I agree with this but I don't see how it works practically speaking. If any community is going to find it hard to sponsor structured programs for everyone, it would be the community where people have large families and have to pay for both school and camp for every child - no?
C) City girls have a choice. BUT, if their mothers work, or are home running a large household, they are kind of stuck. Part of being chassidish is being insular. So pacing the parks and museums without proper adult escort is a huge no no for ruchnius and gashmius reasons.
D) Leaving teens home alone for extended hours of time alone is very not encouraged in our communities.
I asked lamplighter this, asking you too -
Isn't it odd that davka the teens who will be expected to be all grown up the soonest, are treated as least responsible as teenagers? I really don't get it. How does someone go from unready to go to a museum with friends, or even just stay home alone, to ready for marriage, in just 3 years or so? Meanwhile, in dati leumi communities where women aren't expected to start dating for marriage until their early 20s, girls ages 15-16 are expected to be working or volunteering at that age, IOW doing something where they have some responsibility, not being babysat.
(eta - rereading this it seems to me like it might "sound" antagonistic, so I just wanted to clarify that my mental tone here was one of surprise not criticism. I would have guessed that chassidish young women would be given even more responsibility than their counterparts, during the summer and the year.)
Last edited by ora_43 on Sun, Jul 24 2011, 6:18 am; edited 1 time in total
Because it sounds to me like a set up. A group of people all of a sudden decided that they had to live by a certain set of standards which they hadn't lived by until then (did chassidim in the 1940s in america also have ten kids? when did this start?) in a place which was deteriorating in terms of physical conditions (your "Ir hakodesh brooklyn" which has no parks except for all those which Saw describes ) and without giving training for higher paying jobs to the wageearners (who aren't encouraged or sometimes allowed to pursue advanced secular education) and creating a social situation where mothers have to stay home (because of non-stop childbearing) but put the house and the cooking on equal level to their role as being mothers (because of the tremendous push to show that they are such great "balabustas")....and then because of all of this absolutely HAVE to get the kids into camp and preferably out of the city (instead of realizing that so many can't afford this and looking as a community to create totally affordable alternatives inside the city that don't require charity).....AND - and this is the main point - require these families to ask for zedoko from OUTSIDE THE COMMUNITY to send their kids to camp.
Why in the world are you all perpetuating such an unhealthy situation??? Why aren't people in these communities looking for alternatives for one or more of the variables above. Why do people think that it is NORMAL to live like this and ask for zedoko from strangers to continue living like this? There is no determinism involved here, it's not like it was always like this. It evolved. And it can re-evolve differently not giving up the most important things in terms of values. You want a big family - wonderful. You want to live in Brooklyn - also wonderful. But it is not impossible to get a park built in a neighborhood, or cleaned up. For that Americans are always so proud of the fact that they have local congressmen, representatives of a discrict. In city government too. So Why do all these neighborhoods continue to exist without parks? Or maybe there ARE parks but you are too tired to go there? Why?
There always seems to be a reason not to do something or not to change...but maybe it's just easier to kvetch and take zedoko?
Even though I don't agree with every point in FS's post (e.g. that people should "plan" their family for financial reasons) - IMHO the general idea just sums up this thread.
After all these eighty-something pages the conclusion is that everyone around the world doesn't think camp is absolutely pikuach nefesh except for chassidim in Brooklyn.
Just read FS's point - there are lots of choices we make in life, and we can put them on a scale of 1-10 as to how much we feel we can choose. For example, buying kosher food is a 1 - although we could choose in theory, ch"v we should choose anything else. Giving our children a good Jewish education is a 1. No choice. Eating fleishig on Shabbos might be a 3 or a 5 or a 10 depending on your hashkafa.
But the problem here is that chassidim in Brooklyn (since they seem to be the only ones hanging on to this camp theory as pikuach nefesh) feel everything is a 1, an absolute we-have-nothing-to-discuss necessity.
Being a SAHM - 1
Living in Brooklyn - 1
Having lots of children - 1
Having the boys learn during the summer - 1
Making fancy dinners - 1
Keeping the house sparkling - 1
Having a cleaner - 1
Eating red meat on YT - 1
Dressing their children in matching outfits, at least on Shabbos/ YT - 1
So that's why it's only like this for them. There are a lot of frum women on this board and I am pretty sure that for almost all of them the chinuch of their children is a top priority. So why don't they have to send them to camp?
Because they realize that you cannot have everything as a non-negotiable necessity. There are women here who will not compromise on chinuch. They will not compromise on being a SAHM. So they realize lots of other things will have to go - they will have to live very frugally, they will dress their children in second-hand clothes, not go on vacation etc, BECAUSE THEY DECIDED BEING A SAHM IS MORE IMPORTANT. But they do not then think they are entitled to a summer off. They chose the luxury of being a SAHM (because, yes, unfortunately it seems to be a luxury today in most communities) so they are willing to sacrifice other things to attain that.
Or, for example, my husband is in kolel and I work. So that is our choice. It means I need to work and it means we can't afford things many people here will tell me are standard. But we decided on our priorities. But then I can't turn to the community and say 'give me tzedaka to take my kids on an expensive trip every other week this summer'.
So if you chose to live in Brooklyn (which I don't remember as being a mitzva midoraysa, feel free to correct me), and you chose to be a SAHM (which is a great thing but again, it's a choice) and you chose to buy kosher food and give your children a good Jewish education (which I don't think is a choice, so you cannot compromise on this one) and you choose to have a cleaning lady (because you fear for SB or your health - so I cannot tell you how much of a choice this is for each person) and now those choices finished up your dh's salary, you DO NOT have the choice for expensive summer activities. You will just have to manage.
BTW, about the cheder boys going away as a cheder - I have a feeling when it began it was much cheaper. And no doubt it began around the Second World War when families were smaller and expectations for other things (like simchas, matching clothes, diamonds and pearls for kallas etc.) were low. Why doesn't everyone just get together and say most people cannot afford it and keep the chadarim in the city?
Actually I'm realizing here too, if you want a full time summer yeshiva you have to "go away". Those in cities are half time, or you can go to a kollel but it's not the same, not everyone will attend daily and punctually (but both are free or symbolical)... DH tells me the Chabad summer yeshiva is about 200 euros/week food and dorm included. It lasts 3 or 4 weeks. Discount for students of their schools and scholarships for others who can't pay. He doubts they turn down people.
I am not aware of non Chabad doing go away yeshiva, though. Maybe it's just not advertised, so I don't know the prices.
But summer chedarim? the few that exist, always in the city. There should at least be a choice of a city cheder. It's not like the population they catter to is rich. If they don't mind to exclude some children... then maybe they do NOT think it is so important after all...
Being a SAHM - 1
Living in Brooklyn - 1
Having lots of children - 1
Having the boys learn during the summer - 1
Making fancy dinners - 1
Keeping the house sparkling - 1
Having a cleaner - 1
Eating red meat on YT - 1
Dressing their children in matching outfits, at least on Shabbos/ YT - 1
I agree with you on the first four to some extent, but so far nobody has said anything to indicate that meals are fancy every day or the house is supposed to be sparkling (just not a wreck, which to me is to parents of young children as "sparkling" is to others, but still, they aren't seeking perfection by objective standards). Or that they expect household help or matching outfits.
Even being a SAHM is something that I doubt is equally important to an entire community. Maybe it's a "1" to some but there are probably plenty of women in the community who work at least part-time.
I have a feeling that in chassidish circles the fact that one married off girls at 18 and boys at 20 doesn't mean that they are old enough to be responsible adults, just the opposite, they are, besach hakol, treated as if they were old enough to PROCREATE and nothing else. Just look at all the threads about young couples who have never had a meal home alone even during the week, and never make shabbos or yuntif and are in shock when after a few years mommy and daddy go away for pesach or can't host them and then OY VEY what are they supposed to do....
Meaning it seems that Chassidish life in america davka is trying to keep the teenagers babies for longer and longer without giving them adult responsibilty as is being done here in EY, among both chassidim and litvish, not to speak about MO/DL or other non charedi groups.
Another point - of course I could follow all the stories about chassidish life but I still don't buy it. Why? Because the Gedolim of yesteryear in the chassidish world, none of whom are alive today, were relating to the problems and the economics of yesteryear. What held true for a chassidish kid in brooklyn in 1955 or 1960 just does not apply to today. So all the gedolim, and they were definintely GEDOLIM, may very well - had they been alive today - have promoted some other solution for the summer other than camp outside the city (which BTW was not an American invention but a european one, because even in BY in Cracow they had camp outside the city for the girls (see the pictures of Bnos camps in Zakopane in 1935,6,7,8 and even the very problematic summer of 1939 right before the outbreak of war - girls in short sleeves and no socks BTW but that's another issue)
Let me explain.
1) in the 1950s and 60s (like in Cracow in the late 1930s) there was rampant assimilation among chassidish families. Yes yes, good chassidish families and therefore the idea was to keep the kids away from home as much as possible and away from the neighborhoods. There just weren't that many chassidish kids (in America) or those who were, were busy going OTD (in major cities in Poland).
Today chassidish kids in NY live in chassidish enclaves and there isn't the problem of assimilation due to lack of enough chassidish families in GENERAL that existed when the gedolim talked about camp during the summer.
2) Health conditions in the city were often horrible. First in Europe (think 1930s) then in America (think 1940s and early 50s) There were epidemics (polio, TB) especially during the summer. Therefore the idea was to literally save the kids' lives by taking them out of the city and the danger of epidemics.
Today that isn't an issue.
3) People could afford it or there were general organizations which covered the costs. WHICH IS WHAT THIS THREAD IS ALL ABOUT IN THE FIRST PLACE. In Poland the cost was covered by the fact that the "camp grounds" were all supported by TOZ, CENTOZ or any of the Jewish voluntary health organizations. The food was minimal and paid for by the girls' families. Transport to the camp was by train which the families paid for (the ticket) and for some by horse and wagon (same). And there was nothing else. No trips, nothing. The teachers (single older women) would go for the vacation to breathe the air without pay. The "activities" included shiurim, walks, playing tag and jump rope, singing, swimming in the local stream (yeah, mixed sometimes, BY, what can you do...Europe you know...all those sinners) and...eating three meals a day. Period. Punkt. Full stop.
In america in the 1940s and early 50s camp Zeirei Agudas yisroel, for example, which I know of well because my father would go and visit there for shabbos to give shiurim in the late 1940s when he came from Europe, was supported by...same thing - the camp grounds were supported by Agudah, the "activities" cost close to nothing, and the kids families could afford the transportation to and from and to basically pay for the food. Which was all the whole thing cost.
Today it's different. Both parents and kids expect "activities". The camp isn't to give kids a chance to "breathe healthy air while taking on the responsibility for the younger campers" (which is exactly what used to be in the 1940s and early 50s, the sixteen year old boys would help care for the 11 year olds) and that parents can afford, but rather something that keeps them kids for longer instead of giving them adult responsiblities. Because at past 16 the chassidish boys stayed in the city in those days and...got jobs for the summer.
And no one took zedoko for it as the costs were super minimal and the parents could afford it. And those who couldn't...just didn't send. Or sometimes could send their kids along for shabbos at "camp" in the 1940s and 50s and they would travel up from NY with men like my father on a Friday, who were always shlepping a few younger kids along to experience the shabbos...and go back with him to NY sunday nite. Public transport. Cost almost nothing.
THAT was what the GEDOLIM of yesteryear in America were promoting.
An affordable experience of torah learning with totally inexpensive activities where the grounds were provided by Agudah and the parents paid the food and the transportation.
You didn't take zedoko for it, and there were still enough chassidish kids who DIDNT go that the cities weren't emptied.
BIG difference from what happens today. Because to recall...the thread was about people UNABLE to pay for camp and asking ZEDOKO, not the question of whether it's important or good for the kids to go to camp...and the arguments given had nothing to do with the child's good but rather that the MOTHER could not go about her housewifely and homemaking duties if the children were underfoot.
BIG difference from what the gedolim of yesteryear in Europe or America thought camp should be...
Being a SAHM - 1
Living in Brooklyn - 1
Having lots of children - 1
Having the boys learn during the summer - 1
Making fancy dinners - 1
Keeping the house sparkling - 1
Having a cleaner - 1
Eating red meat on YT - 1
Dressing their children in matching outfits, at least on Shabbos/ YT - 1
I agree with you on the first four to some extent, but so far nobody has said anything to indicate that meals are fancy every day or the house is supposed to be sparkling (just not a wreck, which to me is to parents of young children as "sparkling" is to others, but still, they aren't seeking perfection by objective standards).
Several posts mentioned that the reason a SAHM cannot look after her children during the summer (again - it's the mother claiming she cannot cope) is because when will she do her housework? I said here it's a choice. It's fine if you can afford it, but if you can't you will have to choose something (or more than one thing) that has to go - and some women might choose to make very simple meals and care less for their house if the other things are more important to them.
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Or that they expect household help or matching outfits.
We have had other threads where women (don't remember who) said this is how they live - I was just suggesting it as a possible choice for some women.
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Even being a SAHM is something that I doubt is equally important to an entire community. Maybe it's a "1" to some but there are probably plenty of women in the community who work at least part-time.
This thread is pretty much only about SAHMs because most others probably need some form of camp for childcare reasons (unless they have older children able/willing to babysit).
shalhevet, I agree with you on most things (not all) but at least you got me to laugh out loud.
Especially the blasphemy of living in one specific place not being a de'oraisa. (No, I don't mean Eretz Yisrael.)
And, freidasima, all the detail about how camp started and what it originally was - however true that is, life is different nowadays and expectations are different.
Ohh ... that's way back on page one, isn't it?
Exactly. Life is different. So when someone tells me to be careful and not saying about the Gedolim in America of yesteryear who created the idea of sending kids to camp I have to go back to the source, no? The same gedolim, their reasons, and the fact that many of the reasons are no longer applicable....AND the fact that the gedolim are no longer alive to take a good look around and say "yingelach, meidelach, we have to change things because it can't go on this way".
Again, all this has to do with asking for money as zedoko to pay for one's kids' camp.
The argument as Shal and others have said, that camp is a necessity because of X, Y and Z across the board. What she and I and others have said is that is it not an across the board necessity and that if one can't pay for it, then time to take a good look at choices.
I agree with Shal that having read numerous posts from chassidish posters here about what is expected in terms of being a "balabusta" and how terrific balabustas chassidish women are, that these standards are possibly behind some of the women's claiming an inability to deal both full time with home and full time with children, something that other SAHM posters seem to be able to do. Again no one said it's easy but rather that it comes with the territory of being a SAHM.
So I agree in full with what Shal writes about it seeming that chassidish posters in Brooklyn are making everything into a (1) and not realizing that something has to give when you are too tired or can't afford to do it all. And that what has to "give" is NOT, first and foremost your and my pocketbooks or wallets!
