Frustrated and Disgusted by student..NEED ADVICE!!

buzz ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 1:23 am

Ok, firstly your thread title shocked me, being a teacher of 9 years myself and having a fair share of challenging students I would never say I was disgusted with a student!!!!!!!!!! And then to find out the poor kid is only 3rd grade makes it even worse, I also thought you were talking about a teenager!!

What I would suggest is a tried and true method for every type of student but it is too long to write and explain properly on here, if you want you can pm me. This is the type of child who is lacking in many ways and obviously the normal discipline system will not work for him. These type of children are 5-10 % of the average class. Regarding his lying and conniving that is Middos which can be changed if he receives the proper chinuch from home, but you as a teacher have a tremendous power to change the life of this child.

Please please give him a chance, don't expect any change, do it in tiny little baby steps, let him see that you truly are there for him and care for him and he can trust you no matter waht and whatever he does you will not be disgusted, but be there to help him through it. I can think of so many ways to help this child and his age is an advantage as he is still young to be able to get direction unlike teenagers where it is more difficult.

My heart goes out to the child and I know how you feel too, sometimes we so much want to help the child but we just don't know what to do when everything we do backfires.

Good Luck

aidelmaidel ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 6:56 am

I like the other posters am shocked by the way you are speaking about this child.

25 years of teaching just means you've been teaching for 25 years.

Why have you just switched schools? Was your contract not renewed?

My child had a teacher like yourself last year. Except she had been teaching for over 40 years.

She did not have a conversation or discussion with me the entire year - every time we tried to speak it was her giving me announcements and pronouncements. She disagreed with my decisions for my child at every turn. Every time we tried to talk I was informed that "I've been teaching for over 40 years, and I've *never* had a child like your daughter. Why are you doing _____? Don't you see that's wrong?" Etc etc etc.

As many times as I tried to explain to the teacher "We are working with professionals and specialist doctors, I am not randomly doing things without professional advice, I am *still* my child's parent and it's my *right* to make choices for my child, regardless of who you are and how many years you've been teaching."

Take a step back and realize that maybe you think you're speaking to the mother, but maybe you're just lecturing her. Do you like to be lectured to?

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 8:01 am

I have read all of your posts and I want to clarify a few things.
First, those of you who are teachers and DO understand that the purpose of my post was a vent and who have had experiences such as mine-THANK YOU. Your understanding has helped me refocus and get perspective (especially you, pickle)
Secondly, the reason I mentioned that the boy was from a chasidish school was to emphasize that Chasidish boys schools often deride and mock English, especially women teachers, and that is part and parcel of the attitude this child has (Im sorry, I thought that was clear, but after rereading your post I see it was not). BTW, I have tried to constantly communicate with the mom (who shuts me downand is in denial) and the dad(who has that attitude towards English as well.) I have consulted with professionals (Psychologists and special ed personnel) and, no, we do not have a guidance counselor in the school (probably part of the problem.)
Please do not feel the need to knock me as many of you parents did. I have to tell you that in my class, there are 5 kids diagnosed with various emotional problems, and BH I have been successful, as their previous teahcers have NOT, in 'saving' them, and they have enjoyed their first happy year in this school, under my guidance(as the parents have told me). Here, you are talking about a kid whose parents are in denial. I am not trying to 'break' anyone, just to show the others in the class that this is not the 'derech' and should not be emulated in any way. My idea was to not allow him to attend my party on the last day of achool for the FULL time (maybe miss a half hour or so. ) Some of you seem to think that who knows what I was planning to do, and it would 'scar him' for life! I am sorry that you are projecting your experiences on to me, and I think that what happened to your own child was awful..but that is neither here nor there. I am not that teacher, and you are not this parent. Please understand that I would do this missing of my party only as a very last resort (in fact, todays plan was to change his seat, talk to him, and refocus his/my perspective.)
I also want to point out to parents who responded and have judged the teacher (in their case)harshly-you are not in theteacher's shoes, and have no right to blame them for what happened to your child. Have you examined YOUR actions? Have your really tried to hear the teacher and understand his/her viewpoint, or were you so busy defending your own child, so emotionally involved, in your own pain (understandably so) that you lost all perspective? Children today are way more difficult, and yes, third grade may seem like a 'baby' to many posters, but trust me, todays third grader is way different than yesterdays. They know and are exposed to alot more, as well as diagnosed with alot more 'conditions' (a reason I spend my summers taking special ed classes, to familiarize myself and update my teaching and understanding skills, something many teachers do not do.) So before you judge me, take a look at yourself, and ask-am I really doing all I need to do to work with my childs teacher? Have I updated my knowledge of my child's condition, enough to educate myself on the BEST way to communicate to the teacher, without my pain, anger, and condemnation getting through, and my desitre to help my child being lost in translation?Or, am I already condemning him/her as a poor, ineffective teacher who only wants to 'harm' my child? I want you to know that parents who work with me, as well as my colleagues always get excellent results..maybe it is YOU who has to refocus. Maybe blame is not the answer, and communication, admission of the issues , and a reality check are in order..I feel your pain, but you need to feel the pain of a teacher who has truly tried everything, and is desperate to help your child! Just a thought...

Yocheved84

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 8:08 am

In OP's defense. Those of us who work probably go to work in places that have air conditioning.We probably sit at desks. Of course, we all have stress, but we probably aren't on our feet all day with no air and constant noise. (I shouldn't generalize, but ok.)

OP is entitled to have a bad day. OP is entitled to be annoyed at her bosses and co-workers once in a while. In her case, this includes her principle, the mother, and this child.

Of course, this child has problems. Whether the course of treatment is a time-out in school or at home, psychological intervention at school or at home, discipline at school or at home, isn't really what OP was looking for--I don't think. I think she was looking to vent--and maybe get some suggestions in the process.

I'll out myself as the one who taught at the community college. I didn't know the age of the child. And when I said "make an example," I suppose I should clarify re my situation, trying to make an equivalent example: The first few weeks, I pulled my hair out w/ this rude and annoying and disrespectful student. He even made anti-Semitic comments, but did so via "innocent questions." He lied, cheated, didn't do his work.

But then, I made him the example. **HERE'S HOW:** Whenever he gave an answer to a question (a **very easy** question), I made a huge deal over how he got it right without making it obvious that I was deliberately doing so because it was him--I was making a big deal over the fact that it was supposedly such a tough question. I said, in front of the entire class, "You see that guys? The only person who got that question right was Eric. And then I winked at him and said "Great job." And after class, I pulled him aside and told him that I was so proud of him and that he should consider doing extra "honors" homework in this area."

I built up his confidence. He was one of six kids. I was probably the only one to show him attention.

Maybe that's what this kid needs--some attention, some confidence. That's what I meant by "example"--I'm sorry if my non-air conditioned and fatigued head wasn't clear. And you know what? This kid came back and became center stage. Did he yell out answers? Yes. But he gradually started to do his homework and was less of a behavior case by the end of the semester.

Yes, your'e dealing with an 8 year old. But maybe it's worth a shot. You've got 3 weeks, OP. You have nothing to lose. At work today, give it a try. Pull him aside at recess and say how proud you were at the amazing job he did at (pick ONE subject). You have never seen anything like it. Sorry you didn't a chance to tell him before. Do you think he might want to consider a super duper special project?

Young adult educators: If I am completely off-base here, please tell me. (I'd like to know if this approach is wrong.)

And OP--WE ALLLL HAVE THESE DAYS!

And to the frustrated mothers--I feel your pain. While not in your shoes, I remember being humiliated by teachers. The pain has stayed, and there are certain subjects I never excelled in because of how they made me feel. :::grinds teeth::::

↑ life'sgreat ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 8:56 am

amother wrote:

<snip>

I also want to point out to parents who responded and have judged the teacher (in their case)harshly-you are not in theteacher's shoes, and have no right to blame them for what happened to your child. Have you examined YOUR actions? Have your really tried to hear the teacher and understand his/her viewpoint, or were you so busy defending your own child, so emotionally involved, in your own pain (understandably so) that you lost all perspective? Children today are way more difficult, and yes, third grade may seem like a 'baby' to many posters, but trust me, todays third grader is way different than yesterdays. They know and are exposed to alot more, as well as diagnosed with alot more 'conditions' (a reason I spend my summers taking special ed classes, to familiarize myself and update my teaching and understanding skills, something many teachers do not do.) So before you judge me, take a look at yourself, and ask-am I really doing all I need to do to work with my childs teacher? Have I updated my knowledge of my child's condition, enough to educate myself on the BEST way to communicate to the teacher, without my pain, anger, and condemnation getting through, and my desitre to help my child being lost in translation?Or, am I already condemning him/her as a poor, ineffective teacher who only wants to 'harm' my child? I want you to know that parents who work with me, as well as my colleagues always get excellent results..maybe it is YOU who has to refocus. Maybe blame is not the answer, and communication, admission of the issues , and a reality check are in order..I feel your pain, but you need to feel the pain of a teacher who has truly tried everything, and is desperate to help your child! Just a thought...

Frankly, using him as the 'example' with an end of year party is absurd. It is a way for you to 'show' that you have the last word and are the one in power. It will teach the child absolutely nada, but will give you the feeling that you triumphed. I find that disturbing.

Regarding your talk to mothers, it seems to me that you ARE one of the teachers said mothers are referring to. The mother could say the same exact thing about you for all you know. That she doesn't even bother talking to you because you just don't see it for what it is etc...

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 9:03 am

(I am amother who has a similar behaved child) I think its mean and purposeless to not let him attend the party the last day. Some kids are just very difficult even for the best experts. I think the whole concept of making an example is no good unless you mean not letting bad behavior slide at the very start of the school year to set up decorum in the classroom.

In my case we do have outside help for our ds. We do acknowledge there are issues to be dealt with but know the teacher is ill equipped in the ways to help and not harm our particular child in this instance. I don't think our teacher is a horrible human being as far as motives go. This is not our first child to be in their class. In the past we have seen this teachers strengths.

Our child seems to be out of the teachers expetise and the teacher seems stuck to a system and is too set in their system for adapting. Most other teachers this one child has had before b"h were very good and knew how to deal with our ds. Out of the around 50 teachers my children have had so far roughly half were really excellent. Only a few have been horrible experiences that really stain ones childhood. That being said, I don't think I have unrealistic ideas.

Unfortunately one bad shidduch can label my child for his whole schooling or leave emotional scars or set a child up to go downhill. It is very frustrating as a parent for a teacher to tell you I tried positive for 4 days and its not fixed I am going back to my old system. Really who is "cured" in a few days?

I really think what Yocheved84 did was amazing and applies even more to young children and am amazed that she did that with young adults.

I wish you strength and success to help this student of yours for the last few weeks of the school year and hope you choose to not make an example of his bad behavior for the class who is surely already in the know that it's not okay, and make an example of a strength or two you can find to try to set the child with the problems up for a better future. I know that teaching is a very very very hard job and it takes few special people to succeed in this special field, especially when they don't get dream easy classes of students.

↑ shoshina ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 9:20 am

life'sgreat wrote:

shoshina wrote:

OP if you spent this entire year unable to manage the child, what do you accomplish or prove by banning him from part of the end of year party? Do you think the other children will *really* look at him and say "Oh, I get it, after an entire year of watching him misbehave, NOW I realize I shouldn't be like this!" Really OP?

I'm sorry that he "won" and got the better of you this school year. You need to move on and start thinking about next year, and so can your poor student.

And OP, just a thought, if the boys mother is on Imamother and reads this thread, she will probably be able to identify you (the teacher who constantly reminds everyone that she has 25 years teaching experience) and will probably want to go to the principle with the fact that you've been discussing her child on the internet.

I don't think there's any issue in what the OP is doing in discussing her child on the internet anonymously.

She's not discussing her child. She's discussing another woman's child. If this is as big an issue as the OP implies it is, people in her class will be able to identify that child. Those people will also get to read the following description the OP started out with:

His chutzpah is beyond belief..but worse than that is his constant lies. He lies about everything, from finishing assignments to denying his culpability for any situation(even those I witnessed with my own eyes) and I believe he has severe anger/emotional problems. I have tried everything, from positive reinforcement, to punishment, to ABA techniques..but nothing works and there are no parents 'at home' to talk to. My principal is ineffective, and has 'given up' on the mother, which in essence leaves me to deal with this alone, and I was told to be 'positive' with him, which is impossibe since he is a very negaive, conniving child..

So, a teacher (with 25 years experience lets not forget) accuses a child of being a liar, his parents of being neglectful, and that the child is "negative and conniving"

I would absolutely report this kind of thing to the principle.

↑ shoshina ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 9:21 am

life'sgreat wrote:

shoshina wrote:

I don't think there's any issue in what the OP is doing in discussing her child on the internet anonymously.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 9:30 am

amother wrote:

Hi Im a teacher for over 25 years. I just switched jobs this year and am now in a school where the chutzpah is unbelievable, not to mention the spoiling of the kids, as well as what the school will tolerate . In my class, I run a tight ship, and even kids that were considered 'impossible' I BH have eating out of my hand by now. However, there is this one kid who transferred out from a 'chasidish' type school. He has a giant chip on his shoulder since supposedly (although they deny it) the school promised to place him in another class and lucky me! he ended up in mine. Since his mother is also a teacher (but far less experienced than I ) she refuses to listen to my issues with him, and has denied the reality since Sept, stating that 'its my problem' and continuously defending her son. His chutzpah is beyond belief..but worse than that is his constant lies. He lies about everything, from finishing assignments to denying his culpability for any situation(even those I witnessed with my own eyes) and I believe he has severe anger/emotional problems. I have tried everything, from positive reinforcement, to punishment, to ABA techniques..but nothing works and there are no parents 'at home' to talk to. My principal is ineffective, and has 'given up' on the mother, which in essence leaves me to deal with this alone, and I was told to be 'positive' with him, which is impossibe since he is a very negaive, conniving child..I am sure he will end up in deep trouble, knowing the depth of his dishonesty and his sneaky actions in all situations. The year is almost over but I feel that I need to 'make an example' of him, somehow, at least to show the rest of the class that this will not be tolerated by me. Since in all my 25+ years, I have never encountered such an extreme case, how can I do so in the best, most effective way? Advice please....

At the moment when you decided that a child is *sneaky* *negative* and *conniving* and that you *need to make an example of him,* when you decided that it was *impossible to be positive with him,* you should have demanded that he be placed in a different classroom with a teacher who does not see him in such a negative light. How can you possibly expect him to behave and succeed when you label him this way.

He's 8 or 9 years old, for heaven's sake.

My advice? If you cannot see the good in a 9 year-old, you should resign from teaching before you destroy another child's self esteem.

↑ buzz

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 9:32 am

Yocheved84 wrote:

Hi Yocheved84 - I am a young adult educator and the advice you gave is very 'in" Wink

We just had a whole term of inservices called the nurturing approach and it is all based on focusing on the positive to eradicate the negative. There are steps etc in this process, it does not happen overnight but the first step is creating a positive environment by infusing positive constructive feedback/praise on a students behaviour, looking out for those times as they may not be easy to find...so what you explained was spot on...

While we are all allowed to vent for bad days, the OP's thread title really made me upset as I am never disgusted by my students, even when a Down's syndrome student sneezes, burps etc etc. Each child is a whole world and us teachers have such a power to lead them and direct them and encourage them and infuse them with a love of learning and of torah. It is our job NEVER to give up but to ask for help, and look for any possible solution against all odds to help the child.

I have worked with many hard parents, that is part and parcel of teaching, every parent is so different and there are some parents that make the job even more difficult, but that is when we must rise to the challenge and really use our Koichos as a teacher to change the child.

Op - like someone mentioned you have three weeks left, pulling him out of a party won't change him, it may make you feel better but him, he will probably put up a front that he doesn't care but deep down he is just wishing someone would understand him and help him out of this mess because he is way to young to fix himself up. Please do something, validate any good thing he does, not too big because he may get suspicious, give him one on one time, set up situations where he can succeed, find a hobby and allow him to do something for the class - perhaps if he can draw a picture on shavous to hang up...

There are so many ways you can still try, and perhaps make him feel better and be better.