Mother's Helper Not Paid What Was Promised

sky ↓

Thu, Apr 28 2011, 10:19 am

shalhevet wrote:

About telling the rosh yeshiva of this family - I don't understand why you are telling him. You said a couple of times you are just telling him so he should know. Sounds like classic LH to me, unless there is to'eles (and then you have to check that it's halachically toeles).

Wouldn't it save other people from the same situation. They were give the R'Y as a reference. Shouldn't he be told so that he can tell the people who call him as a reference the following year.

Chocoholic ↓

Thu, Apr 28 2011, 10:58 am

The rosh yeshiva needs to know otherwise he might be recommending them to other young girls that oculd be exploited...

Isn't it interesting that with this kind of cases, and other serious criminals people are all too careful about lashon hara but if its about less frum jews, people loose all their carefulness...

↑ Fox

Thu, Apr 28 2011, 11:10 am

Tova wrote:

I cannot imagine taking someone to beis din without at least talking to a Rav about it. Not because I am a chareidi person who asks a Rav before I eat breakfast. But because it is a sensitive bein adam l'makom situation and especially when you have your own personal negios involved as well as chinuch issues (notice the OP said her daughter wants to see them suffer aggravation) - it's k'dai not to take the ball and run with it. JMVHO of course.

I completely see what you're saying, but this is still a case of grafting a non-Jewish assumption onto the Jewish concept of justice.

Taking someone to Bais Din because you feel you have been wronged in some way is not an act of aggression or belligerence. Nor is it a source of embarrassment. In fact, never having been called to a Din Torah should be far more worrisome to people than never having been called. It means that you may have acted improperly and never made restitution or rectified the situation in any way. Now, it may be that the Bais Din concludes that a case is not legitimate. So now you know! Or, as in many cases, the Bais Din will recommend a compromise of some sort.

I once spoke with a businessman who worked very hard to be erlich in all his dealings, and someone asked if he'd "ever" been taken to Bais Din, the implication being that a truly honest businessman would never have faced a Bais Din. He said, "Boruch Hashem, many times. Sometimes it worked out the way I wanted and sometimes not, but I always complied with the Bais Din's ruling. If someone feels I cheated him, I want him to take me to Bais Din. Let them decide and then we can move on."

What you seem to be describing is more of the "rav as counselor" or "rav as potential toen" model. It may be useful to discuss one's situation with a rav and seek his general guidance on a personal level, but this really shouldn't supplant the system of justice spelled out by the Torah.

I suppose it's possible that someone might become overly litigious with regard to Bais Din, but that doesn't seem to be the primary problem of our times.

BTW, I would argue that properly using the Jewish justice system would significantly decrease LH. Let's face it, LH often results when someone feels wronged but has no real recourse. Let's say, for example, that the local Jewish dry cleaner ruins a garment. He offers compensation which you feel is inadequate, so you approach the local Bais Din. They review the relevant halachas and conclude that the compensation originally offered by the cleaner is fair. You may still be frustrated, but what are you going to say? "That blankety-blank cleaner ruined my skirt, and the Bais Din came down on his side!" Even when you "lose," it's harder to hold a grudge against someone who followed the halacha, even if it made you unhappy.

I would also argue that using the Bais Din system more commonly would actually serve as a deterrent. Let's face it, there are plenty of misbehaving Jews out there -- in fact, we probably all misbehave from time to time in commercial transactions. The majority tend to confine their corner-cutting to the gray areas -- amounts that are too small to pursue aggressively or people who lack the resources to effectively assert their rights. But knowing that cheating the babysitter or cleaning lady (purposely or inadvertently) would most likely result in a swift call to a local Bais Din, the temptation to behave improperly would be reduced.

Of course, in a fragmented Jewish world, we attack the Bais Din itself, and I'd be the first to agree that many Battei Din don't operate as they should. But I'm not sure if this is a cause or simply a symptom of our aversion to Jewish justice. When we start treating Jewish justice as a "last resort," it creates a very distorted situation in which average people become fearful and the "experts" are given excessive power.

So the chinuch part seems pretty straightforward to me: when Jews have a financial dispute, they don't run around venting. They go to a Bais Din. So I don't get the sense that the OP is indulging in a vendetta or teaching her children to do the same. Her DH apparently approached the woman; they disagree on the facts of the case; so let the Bais Din decide.

As for the aggravation, well, this woman needs to learn (a) how to communicate and manage employees better and/or (b) not to cheat teenagers. She is unlikely to learn either lesson unless a "victim" presses the point

↑ sky

Thu, Apr 28 2011, 6:21 pm

Did you have any sort of written contract?

We were once told by our rav (who is also an av beis din) that if there was an amount agreed to be paid and both sides agree that was the amount, and one side just refuses to pay it that you don't have to go to beis din and can go to secular court. (This was in regards to an employee who had a written contract and when he was let go was not paid for the last 2 weeks - both agreed the money was owed and the exact amount. The employer just refused to pay it)

I don't know if what is going to apply to your situation but it may be worthwhile to speak to your rav before going through beis din.

↑ life'sgreat ↓

Thu, Apr 28 2011, 6:23 pm

Tova wrote:

life'sgreat wrote:

and WILL let people know that they did this.

Why would that be halachically permissable? There are 7 conditions for toeles and spreading the word about this incident as revenge certainly doesn't qualify.

Spreading the word so others aren't sucked in to working for free (and being used) is IMO, important.

↑ Tova ↓

Thu, Apr 28 2011, 7:39 pm

Is is not permitted however. In order for something to be permitted to say (l'toeles) it must be nogeah to save a person from the same fate. So you absolutely cannot "spread the word" while you possibly can tell someone who you know is considering the job. And if you learn the 7 conditions of toeles you will see that you must have no ulterior motives or wanting to get revenge by saying over the derogatory information...JUST wanting to save someone else and not get back at Bubby & Co.

↑ Tova

Thu, Apr 28 2011, 7:42 pm

Oh - and Fox - I find your posts on this thread absolutely fascinating. Thanks for typing all that out. I can't wait to discuss this with my husband to get his thoughts.

qtpie

Thu, Apr 28 2011, 9:24 pm

Tova: You bring up some very good points.

OP, I'm so sorry you and your daughter have to deal with this. I do think it's our responsibility as parents to advocate for our kids while at the same time teach the Torah way of dealing with situations that do not go our way. Please have a discussion with her about trying to get back her money that sh'es owed vs. trying to aggravate the other woman.

Good luck!

causemommysaid

Fri, Apr 29 2011, 1:48 am

Tova wrote:

I think it is permitted to tell the RY if he is a reference for this family. It is not permitted for him to tell others what he is told (rather he should just not recommend working there) but it is def toeles to tell him.

↑ amother

Fri, Apr 29 2011, 12:36 pm

OP here. The rav called the woman and she just told him what she told DH, that DD had agreed to take less money because she did a bad job. Then the rav said that there was some disagreement about it, and the woman said that she wasn't going to discuss it anymore and that was that. So the rav said if we want to pursue it we should go to bais din.

One thing that's gotten a little mixed up is that we're not trying to aggravate this woman just to get back at her. It's more like this is just how she does things because she doesn't think people will stand up for themselves. So taking her to a din Torah isn't just "oh, we're mad at you so we're going to cause you some trouble." It's more like "look, we disagree about something and we're willing to live with the bais din's ruling, but we're not going to just go away."

↑ Chocoholic ↓

Fri, Apr 29 2011, 12:49 pm

If the lady wasn't happy with the teen's performance, she should have either fired her or talked to her about what she'd like her to do...................................... obviously under pressure the teen will accept anything (she was probably afraid she'd be getting nothing). The lady just has to pay the other 500 and that's it.
As if someone at walmart gets half his pay if the boss didn't like his work..

flowerpower

Fri, Apr 29 2011, 12:54 pm

I am appaled! They agreed to pay her a certain amount before pesach and didn't fullfill their agreement! That is disgusting. They seem rather spoiled with cooks, maids, and a few vacation homes. I Hope home your dd gets what she deserves, before it starts getting ugly.

overthehill

Fri, Apr 29 2011, 2:02 pm

I would venture out here and say that these people had probably ZERO intention of paying your DD the full amount from the first day- and they are coming out with excuses in order to justify their deplorable and shameful behavior.

↑ life'sgreat

Fri, Apr 29 2011, 3:15 pm

amother wrote:

These people are obnoxious and had no intention of paying. Why do I find that it's more often the rich people that can afford everything that think it's ok to let down others, who actually DEPEND on that money?

I hope you take them to bais din.

↑ shabri

Sat, Apr 30 2011, 2:55 pm

I hope the beis din works out for you. I think its important for you to pursue it to validate your daughter and her claims and to show her that as frum Jews there is a way we go about dealing with disagreement with other people. I think its an amazing lesson that you can give her.

↑ Chocoholic

Sat, Apr 30 2011, 8:07 pm

overthehill wrote:

I totally agree

↑ shoshina

Tue, May 03 2011, 7:10 am

OP, any updates on this?