Mother's Helper Not Paid What Was Promised

↑ shoshina ↓

Wed, Apr 27 2011, 3:56 pm

Of course your DD agreed to accept it-- it was that or zero or have an argument with her employer! What teenager can stand up to a woman like that! You will definitely need a third party on this, whether it be Bais Din or small claims court or the department of Labor. The fact that this woman is Jewish does not absolve her from following the law, which is, pay the people you employ!

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Apr 27 2011, 4:04 pm

shoshina wrote:

The fact that this woman is Jewish does not absolve her from following the law, which is, pay the people you employ!

OP once again.

I just want to add that this isn't a case where someone promised something that they planned to deliver but couldn't for some reason. DD often babysits for people who can't pay her immediately or have to pay her over time. Since our family struggles with parnossah, she is very understanding. This family is extremely wealthy with several homes and a staff at each home.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Apr 27 2011, 4:35 pm

OP here. Thanks for the feedback that DH and I aren't crazy.

DH is filing the din Torah papers this afternoon. DD feels a little better that even if she never sees the rest of her money, at least this woman will have some aggravation from the whole thing. We're also still trying to reach the rav, but these arent' the kind of people who just do what the rav says, so we'll see what happens.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Apr 27 2011, 4:39 pm

This summer when we were on vacation in Israel we hired someone as a babysitter over Shabbos, to spend the whole Shabbos with us. We agreed on a price beforehand.

We thought she was awful. Barely spoke English. (I speak some Hebrew but my kids don't). Wasn't a warm person. (Or maybe just nervous and came off that way). She didn't engage the kids much and didn't watch the little ones in a way that made me feel comfortable. It was just a bad, bad match. We tried to give her some comments early on, but once we saw nothing was changing, we just realized that she was who she was and we would have to make the best of it until Shabbos was over and look for a new girl for the next week.

We paid her. We paid her in full. Even though we felt it was money down the toilet we paid her. How could we not?

I don't know what went on over Pesach with your daughter and I don't know what she did or didn't do to make them decide not to pay her. But unless something very dramatically awful happened, I cannot see how they can have the chutzpah to not pay. How can someone not honor their word? It doesn't matter if your daughter was maybe a bad match for this family and this job for whatever reason. She tried. She was stuck with them all Pesach. She deserves to be compensated as promised and that family should be ashamed of themselves for conducting themselves this way.

Tova ↓

Wed, Apr 27 2011, 6:32 pm

amother wrote:

Wait. You are filing din Torah papers without speaking to your Rav? Please don't. I believe you are in the right but you have to do things appropriately. That definately means speaking to a Rav as an objective third party. For all you will know he will whip out a checkbook and write out a check for the extra $500 from his discretionary fund. That is EXACTLY what happened with us when someone owed us money (specific situation that I can't go into publically) - we had zero intentions of taking such party to beis din and in fact pity-ed this party tremendously but the Rav who was aware of all details insisted that we should not be mochel on it and said we need to cash the check. He said people give money to his discretionary fund for just such purposes. After all - you want your daughter to be compensated, not to "get back" at the other party. And let's say that you have a feeling of revenge now (as it may be human nature to have) - isn't it better to ensure you are taking them to beis din for the right reasons? You also have the chinuch of your daughter and your other children at stake- they are looking at how you are handling this and taking copious mental notes.

Fox ↓

Wed, Apr 27 2011, 7:33 pm

Tova wrote:

Without knowing the details of the situation, this is not how a Bais Din is supposed to work. The idea of taking someone to Bais Din has, unfortunately, become associated with the concept of bringing a lawsuit in a non jewish justice system. This misunderstanding has been aided and abetted by Battei Din that act inappropriately -- or at least lack transparency.

There should be absolutely no stigma in taking someone to Bais Din or being taken to Bais Din -- it's the way the Torah tells us to settle disputes, particularly those of a financial nature. In a perfect world, we should be able to approach a competent Bais Din to arbitrate financial disputes both small and large, knowing that in abiding by the Bais Din decree, we are doing precisely what the Torah wants.

The concept of Bais Din as a "big step" that must be preceded by lengthy negotiation is precisely what the Torah tries to avoid. In many yeshivas, for example, the bochrim ask for a Bais Din over all kinds of issues. My DH once remembers a Bais Din in his yeshiva poskining on whether a particular drapery in the Bais Medrash should be open or closed.

This, then, is what we daven for when we ask Hashem to return our judges to us: the merit of having justice easily accessible. Ideally, a summons to Bais Din would be welcome -- if it turns out you are halachically correct, then you "win." And if the Bais Din decides against you? You also "win" by avoiding an aveira.

Granted, I realize both individuals and the Battei Din of the world are a long way from this ideal. But I definitely disagree that a Bais Din should be regarded as a last step -- it should be regarded as a first step!

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Apr 27 2011, 7:43 pm

Tova wrote:

Wait. You are filing din Torah papers without speaking to your Rav?

OP here. THis isn't our rav or the rav of the family. He's a local rosh yeshiva that knows the family and vouched for them in terms of being an appropriate home for a teenage girl to work in. We live in a different city, so this isn't like a problem between two people in the same community. We're trying to reach him but basically just to let him know what happened for future reference. My DH asked the woman who she uses as a posek because we thought maybe he would be willing to get involved, and she said that they don't go running to a rav for every little question.

↑ Tova ↓

Wed, Apr 27 2011, 8:15 pm

Fox, you may be right in an ideal sense, and I liked your post, but I don't think that's the current situation with battei din and how "taking someone to beis din" is regarded. I cannot imagine taking someone to beis din without at least talking to a Rav about it. Not because I am a chareidi person who asks a Rav before I eat breakfast. But because it is a sensitive bein adam l'makom situation and especially when you have your own personal negios involved as well as chinuch issues (notice the OP said her daughter wants to see them suffer aggravation) - it's k'dai not to take the ball and run with it. JMVHO of course.

There was another situation we were once dealing with that did not have anything to do with monetary damage but just causing additional stress (again, I can't go into particulars) and we went to a Rav who said we were 100% right according to halacha as well as according to secular law, but the right thing would be not to do anything and let things run their course. He also was able to tell us things about the other party that were toeles for us to know and put everything in a very very different light (even though, as I said, it did not change the end result that we were right and they were way out of bounds).

life'sgreat ↓

Wed, Apr 27 2011, 10:13 pm

Blech. People that have money and feel they can take advantage of others because of it make me absolutely sick. Classic case of 'I'm always right. And if I'm not right, I'm still right.'

I'm sorry you're dealing with such a situation. I think you should notify them that you're taking this to beis din and WILL let people know that they did this. Your daughter could have said 'I'm sorry' and even agreed to only get $500, but it still doesn't make it ok for them to take advantage of her. I don't blame your daughter for saying the above (if indeed she did) because they don't seem to be pleasant people to work with.

shabri ↓

Thu, Apr 28 2011, 2:13 am

Tova wrote:

amother wrote:

I'm not an expert and certainly don't mean to disagree with your rav but something in that situation doesn't sit right with me. I don't give tzedaka to my rav to dispense b/c someone who can afford it flaked out of someone else's rightfully earned money. It could be in your situation the person truly couldn't afford it and so maybe it was like giving him tzedaka to pay you back but just giving it directly to you. But I would be upset if in this current situation the rav with who I entrusted my tzedaka money would dispense it to "cover up" some wealthy ladies' decision not to pay.

shalhevet

Thu, Apr 28 2011, 4:55 am

About going to Beis Din immediately - I agree you shouldn't rush into it. Maybe YOU can approach this woman and say if she doesn't want to pay your dd the originally agreed on price, you will be asking your rav what to do and possibly taking it to beis din. That might be enough for this woman to cough up the $500.

About telling the rosh yeshiva of this family - I don't understand why you are telling him. You said a couple of times you are just telling him so he should know. Sounds like classic LH to me, unless there is to'eles (and then you have to check that it's halachically toeles).

Seraph

Thu, Apr 28 2011, 5:00 am

shalhevet wrote:

Toeles can definitely be telling him so he doesn't recommend this family to someone else so the same doesnt happen to another unsuspecting teenager. Al taamod al dam reacha and all that jazz.