sub forum for imamothers losing their emunah

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 8:04 am

amother wrote:

As someone who feels "stuck" I can honestly say that this is not a good idea unless its sole purpose is strengthening those that are struggling.
For me. I do think that Yiddishkeit is beautiful and true and all but I have a very hard time believing that the way it's practiced today is the true way (I'm Charedi) and I have a hard time with all these restrictions especially when I don't believe in many of them.
I especially have issues the sexist and male dominance interpretation in many things and wonder if that's the true interpretation. But I don't think my issues will get resolved if I join a forum where everybody voices their issues. I think it will accomplish just the opposite.
I do wish that I can get answers and guidance to my struggles. I wonder if there are any answers at all or people who are able and willing to answer such struggles of mine.

There are some women out there who are pretty strong and out there, in the Torah world, in business, etc. Forming some sort of relationship, even by e-mail, might really be great for you. I have no idea how accessible they are, and not all of them are well-known outside their communities. (Everyone knows of Rebbetzin Heller, Rebbetzin Twerski, Rebbetzin Sheila Feinstein, etc.)

↑ Mommyme1

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 8:17 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Grin, why do you think all Bais Yaakovs are the same?

This is one for the myth thread - 'BYs don't allow questions'

I also think since so many girls already believe this myth they don't even try to ask.
I remember having great discussions about Emunah with my teachers (among other Hashkafah discussions people say 'aren't allowed in BY').

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 9:16 am

Mommyme1 wrote:

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Grin, why do you think all Bais Yaakovs are the same?

well I remember one discussion where the teacher was convinced that ALL people of the world should be able to figure out that HASHEM created the world by reason alone (similar to Avraham Avinu) and it didn't matter how much we tried to argue with her that there are millions of thinking people who believe in other gods or are atheists, etc. it was to no avail. She would hear no dissent on this matter and didn't even have a logical rebuttal, she just kept saying that anyone who looked at the greatness of nature would believe in Hashem. Case closed. So you could see why the girls in my school would rightfully doubt their ability to freely ask questions.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 9:24 am

grin wrote:

marina wrote:

chaylizi wrote:

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

(Does anyone believe all midrashim are meant to be taken literally?)

nope.

chabad does.

that's interesting for me to hear - can you point to the source?

The Rebbe believed that the 7 days of Bereishis were 7 actual days (I can get you the source later if you're not familiar with this) but that is very hard to reconcile with science, I think most people just go with science is continually evolving... but that is not enough of an answer for everyone

freshie ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 9:29 am

saw50st8 wrote:

amother wrote:

grin wrote:

True I never went to BY (BH)

Why B"H? I went to BY. I didn't realize there is something so wrong with it that you need to thank G-d for not attending.

I'm not the amother, but for me, my soul would have died in Bais Yaakov (my sisters went there so I know a bit of what goes on and it would have been awful for me).

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

(Does anyone believe all midrashim are meant to be taken literally?)

No, but some communities its a lot harder to say "I don't believe that medrash actually happened" than in others.

Was Rivka really 3 when she got married? Was it the result of an improper text? Was she just betrothed? I can tell you that I unequivocally don't believe she was sleeping with Yitchak at 3. No matter how many times my teachers have tried to convince me.

she got engaged at 3 I believe it was a good 10 years until they married.

↑ Hashem_Yaazor ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 9:31 am

amother wrote:

grin wrote:

marina wrote:

chaylizi wrote:

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

(Does anyone believe all midrashim are meant to be taken literally?)

nope.

chabad does.

that's interesting for me to hear - can you point to the source?

That's not a medrash. That's meforash in the Torah.

There is a huge difference between taking tanach literally and taking agadata literally.

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 9:33 am

freshie wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

amother wrote:

grin wrote:

True I never went to BY (BH)

Why B"H? I went to BY. I didn't realize there is something so wrong with it that you need to thank G-d for not attending.

I'm not the amother, but for me, my soul would have died in Bais Yaakov (my sisters went there so I know a bit of what goes on and it would have been awful for me).

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

(Does anyone believe all midrashim are meant to be taken literally?)

she got engaged at 3 I believe it was a good 10 years until they married.

Freshie, I agree that its plausible explanation. But I've had teachers tell me she was MARRIED at 3. Not betrothed/engaged or whatever.

↑ grin ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 9:37 am

amother wrote:

grin wrote:

marina wrote:

chaylizi wrote:

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

(Does anyone believe all midrashim are meant to be taken literally?)

nope.

chabad does.

that's interesting for me to hear - can you point to the source?

this is far from a proof that all midrashim are to be taken literally -and yes, this is peshat, and chazal tell us that "ein mikra yotze midei peshuto".

mechila to all the BY-ers that I insulted - your'e right, that was LH and I was wrong. The BY's I've been acquainted with all were against any such questioning, although you do have a point in that there is a place and time for everything and I guess it just wans't the right school for the likes of me, whereas it is the perfect school for others.

↑ grin

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 9:39 am

saw50st8 wrote:

freshie wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

amother wrote:

grin wrote:

True I never went to BY (BH)

Why B"H? I went to BY. I didn't realize there is something so wrong with it that you need to thank G-d for not attending.

I'm not the amother, but for me, my soul would have died in Bais Yaakov (my sisters went there so I know a bit of what goes on and it would have been awful for me).

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

(Does anyone believe all midrashim are meant to be taken literally?)

she got engaged at 3 I believe it was a good 10 years until they married.

Freshie, I agree that its plausible explanation. But I've had teachers tell me she was MARRIED at 3. Not betrothed/engaged or whatever.

is it a problem to believe that she was 3 then? a very mature child, may I add. (and that Avraham Avinu figured out Hashem's existence at this very same age is easier to understand?)

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 9:40 am

saw50st8 wrote:

freshie wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

amother wrote:

grin wrote:

True I never went to BY (BH)

Why B"H? I went to BY. I didn't realize there is something so wrong with it that you need to thank G-d for not attending.

I'm not the amother, but for me, my soul would have died in Bais Yaakov (my sisters went there so I know a bit of what goes on and it would have been awful for me).

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

(Does anyone believe all midrashim are meant to be taken literally?)

she got engaged at 3 I believe it was a good 10 years until they married.

Freshie, I agree that its plausible explanation. But I've had teachers tell me she was MARRIED at 3. Not betrothed/engaged or whatever.

married at 3 but the marriage wasn't consumated for 10 years until she was 13. but still, a 3 year old drawing water from a well and being consulted on whether she wanted to marry Yitzchak?

And how about Tamar's age, which is what the laws of Yichud are based on.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 9:43 am

grin wrote:

amother wrote:

grin wrote:

marina wrote:

chaylizi wrote:

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

(Does anyone believe all midrashim are meant to be taken literally?)

nope.

chabad does.

that's interesting for me to hear - can you point to the source?

this is far from a proof that all midrashim are to be taken literally -and yes, this is peshat, and chazal tell us that "ein mikra yotze midei peshuto".

agreed that this is pshat not medrash, but it's not just medrashim that some of us struggle with.

Do you believe Reuvein slept with Bilhah?

Besiyata Dishmaya ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 10:01 am

I agree with Grin, Hadasa, Shalhevet and some Amothers who are against a sub-forum on Emunah. I think it could lead to very dangerous discussions that will completely ch"v turn off people's emunah. An amother earlier used a perfect name for this forum: "Borderline Apikores". How many women here are really qualified to answer correctly - al pi daas Torah - the dilemmas and questions people are having in reference to emunah?

For those who really care to improve their emunah, there's a segulah: to say the 13 Ikrim (Ani Mamins) of the Rambam daily.

What I want is a sub-forum on Bitochon where those few who really have bitochon should be mechazek the many of us who aren’t strong enough. This forum should include the amother option.

Regarding Medroshei Chazal: They are accepted by Klal Yisroel like the Gemora and the Zohar. We see the poskim as well as the Rishonim and Achronim quote Medroshei Chazal throughout. Also, the Chofetz Chaim in his sefer on hilchos Loshon Hora which is a halachah sefer quotes many medroshim, etc.

To be taken literally, though, there are certain places where the meforshim say that's it's only a parable and should not be taken face value.

↑ freidasima ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 10:15 am

let me explain what I meant about MO.
I didn't mean that MO don't have issues with belief. But it is of a very different kind than most of the stuff I read here on Imamother.
Anyone can have issues with belief in the existence of G-d, not only Jews BTW. But to say that there are MOs on this site who call themselves MO and don't believe in the existence of G-d? That's pushing it. Then what in the world makes them orthodox at all? Or conservative or Reform? As far as I know the prerequisite of being a believing orthodox, conservative or reform Jew is belief in G-d. There is a question of whether reconstructionists believe in the same form of G-d as other denominations or just a "spirit of Israel" hence I'm not referring to them. But as for the rest, hard exactly to call someone MO if they don't believe in the basis of the Jewish religion at all.

But let's take it further. The problems I see here on this board over and over leading people to question emunah are not issues for most MOs. Taking midrashim literally, having or not having blanket emunas chachomim, certain dress codes, limitations in reading material, in headcovering, in schools, lifestyle issues dealing with kollel as a full time occupation, for most MOs these are non issues. A person who feels stifled because they don't buy into much of the charedi lifestyle or beliefs and thus they begin to have problems with emunah, those kind of things aren't issues for the MO who have a very much more open lifestyle, don't take midrashim literally, combine science with torah, etc.

Again I'm not talking about belief in G-d. You don't have that? You are in gehokte zurris. But otherwise, I have rarely found a "religious issue" that any charedi poster on Imamother has ever mentioned which is an across the board "religious issue" for MOs or at least those that I know, have heard of or have ever had contact with.

THATS what I meant.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 10:19 am

Someone who is shtark MO or Hirschian MO can definitely feel stifled if their desires go for "lighter" clothes or "racier" literature or movies.

I know people who practice MO/JPF/charedi and when you really discuss it, they don't believe (anymore).
Or when you really really ask, oh well, as someone told me on this very website, "forget halacha a bit". Or it's all from Hashem, "but".

↑ Besiyata Dishmaya ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 10:20 am

amother wrote:

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

amother wrote:

Do you believe Reuvein slept with Bilhah?

Is that written in the chumash?

yes, Bereishit 35:22 "When Yisrael dwelled in that land, Reuven went and slept with Bilha, his father's concubine, and Yisrael heard."

This is a Rashi that probably all of us learned in school. Rashi clearly states that Reuven did not actually sleep with Bilhah but rather switched her bed with his mother, Leah's bed and this was considered as sleeping with her. Rashi also adds that Reuven did not sin. See Rashi Bereishis 35:22.