sub forum for imamothers losing their emunah

↑ freidasima ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:07 pm

Ruchel I'm Shtark MO. That doesn't mean we do chumros, it only means that we are as serious about our modernity as we are about our orthodoxy.

As for Hirschian, today many, if not most of those in that kehilla can be considered a form of charedi, or certainly more like charedim than like today's MO.

That's the beauty of MO. You want to read "racy" literature, geh gezint, if that's what light's your fire. You want to wear denim? Do it. You want not to cover your hair? There are rabbonim who have paskened in the MO world (yes yes but we aren't going into it here) that it's ok. You want what? To eat chazer? There you have a true problem, same goes for driving your car to the mall on shabbos.

But those aren't the issues that are listed here. I haven't seen a charedi poster write she is having an emunah crisis because she craves lobster. But I have seen over and over that she can't stand what is going on in charedi schools vis a vis girls getting into seminary, or that she can't stand what she considers a vapid intellectual existence, or she can't stand the norm of husbands sitting in kollel all day and society expecting their wives to work, or she can't stand the norm of having to ask for a heter for BC etc. And that living in such a society in making her question yiddishkeit.

In most of hte MO world, those are non issues.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:23 pm

freidasima wrote:

Ive just skimmed through this but I wouldn't put any bets on the admin opening up a subforum for this.
Why?
Because 99% of the "problems in emunah" that I have read on here aren't an issue for the MOs. Not because they don't believe but because the way MO rabbonim on the most part and educators on the most part and Gedolim on the most part, explain things.
Hence without going into details, as long as you believe in the existence of the Ribono shel Olam, his being the one and only G-d in the world, creator of the world who gave us the Torah, all the rest is really very little problem. But for that you have to take science, history, culture, anthropology, sociology and psychology into account which is something that charedim who love to take everything literally, are loathe to do.

And so, if you are going to take it all literally, you are going to be in gehokte zurris. Hence I'm happy I'm MO.
But that's not the answer that the charedi posters want here. However it's the only intellectually honest answer that I know of.

Hence, as the MO are anathema here and just barely tolerated as "our sister sinners who maybe we can get one day onto the straight and narrow (see the guidelines for the MO forum)."..no way Jose.

OP here

freidasima you have a real chip on your shoulder. I dont understand what the heck you are talking about? what does being MO have to do with questioning emunah? why does everything about you seem to revolve around MO versus Charaidi. this is totally irrelevent.and marina and seqoia are MO if I remember correctly and they both openly said they are interested in this subforum. your theory doesnt hold water

↑ Ruchel ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:38 pm

Quote:

As for Hirschian, today many, if not most of those in that kehilla can be considered a form of charedi, or certainly more like charedim than like today's MO.

Many Hirschian today call themselves "frum" or "JPF".
Interesting point, when we met my dh called himself modern because he saw himself as close to Hirschian, close to "modern Litvish" or educated yeshivish, etc. When I heard his "modern" included FT kollel I knew we would have to define words better Wink

Quote:

You want to read "racy" literature, geh gezint, if that's what light's your fire.

Is there a psak for that?
I for sure know many wouldn't ask!
But would a MO rabbi say it's fine? lite MO? because the shtark MO I know, no way. If people ask, of course.
By racy I don't mean classic "non cleaned up" books, I mean romance novels or something.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:45 pm

freidasima wrote:

and thats not true.

I have a problem with the fundamentals not just asking about BC or learning in kollel

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:51 pm

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

amother wrote:

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

amother wrote:

Do you believe Reuvein slept with Bilhah?

Is that written in the chumash?

yes, Bereishit 35:22 "When Yisrael dwelled in that land, Reuven went and slept with Bilha, his father's concubine, and Yisrael heard."

This is a Rashi that probably all of us learned in school. Rashi clearly states that Reuven did not actually sleep with Bilhah but rather switched her bed with his mother, Leah's bed and this was considered as sleeping with her. Rashi also adds that Reuven did not sin. See Rashi Bereishis 35:22.

Yes I learnt that Rashi as well, the question was in response to this comment:

grin wrote:

this is far from a proof that all midrashim are to be taken literally -and yes, this is peshat, and chazal tell us that "ein mikra yotze midei peshuto".

↑ freidasima ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:01 pm

Then maybe we have to start by defining what we mean by "losing their emunah".
What I wrote is predicated on reading three years of posts on imamother about what most posters meant when they say they have trouble with yiddishkeit. And it was, as I wrote, issues which are usually "non-issues" for the MO which were causing them to say this.

It was a very rare poster who wrote that she had trouble with belief in G-d. Period. It was more that she had trouble believing in a G-d which said that the correct way of life was X (kollel, no BC, women's basic needs depending upon what a Rabbi would pasken, etc.). Which is why I wrote what I did.

I did not mean that there are no MO women who struggle with a question of believing in G-d. I wrote that MO women who straight out say that they don't believe in G-d aren't "struggling", they are making a claim and I claim back at them that they can't there fore call themselves MO because MO is predicated, as is almost every denomination in Judaism, in believing in the existence of an omnipotent and single G-d. people may have trouble with wrapping their mind around that concept, but they accept that this is what Judaism is based on.

That is NOT, I repeat NOT what I have read on Imamother for the past three years. I have not read about structural problems with emunah, meaning problems in the actual belief in the existence of a Supreme Being. I have read, over and over, about women who have trouble with the charedi interpretation of what their rabbonim have stated that G-d wants from Jewish men and women. And that is VERY different than the issue of whether there is or is not a G-d.

And Yes I really thing that a lot of things are a total dichotomy between the MO way of life and belief and what this board espouses as the charedi way of life and belief. I'm not saying that charedi should become MO but what I AM saying is that most of the "issues" that charedi posters - who are the vast majority of posters on this board - raise as their "emunah" problems are non starters for MOs as THEIR rabbonim do NOT pasken that the things that bother these women are part of the correct way of life.

Do you get the difference between what some of you stated and what I am stating here?
I did not even once mention the existence or non existence of a sub forum, note, this is the first time I have used those words on this thread. I was referring to the issues, not whether such a sub forum is needed. Because if it is a general charedi-style forum, like most forums (other than life in MO) are on this board and not just those in the charedi section, I'll bet my bottom shekel that very soon it will once again turn into "I have trouble believing in a G-d that insists that I have baby after baby without a break" or "I have trouble believing in a G-d who insists that I have to fully cover my head all the time" or "I have trouble believing in a G-d who believes that a woman has to be subserviant to her husband" or "I have trouble beleiving in a G-d who is torturing my daughter and not letting her get into a charedi seminary (high school)" etc. etc. etc.

Which, as I wrote, are non issues in the religious world in which I live.

Now do you get it?

↑ hadasa ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:29 pm

amother wrote:

hadasa wrote:

I would like to add that Rashi is generally considered THE authority on Pshuto shel Mikra. So if he says that Reuven didn't sleep with Bilha, then that is the simple meaning of Torah.

you can state this:

[quote="grin

this is far from a proof that all midrashim are to be taken literally -and yes, this is peshat, and chazal tell us that "ein mikra yotze midei peshuto".[/quote]

and then say that there is an authority who gets to decide what peshuto shel mikrah is. we can all read.[/quote] It is not I who says so, it is a generally accepted concept that "Pshat" means Chumash with Rashi. And even though we may read and think we understand, I personally will bow my head before Rashi's superior understanding. I assume his reading comprehension in Biblical Hebrew was no worse than mine, and if he, nevertheless, found it fitting to claim that the simple meaning is different from what it seems, I will take it from him. This is different from other Mefarshim who do not claim to be seeking only Pshuto shel Mikra.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:34 pm

I think there are a lot of "adults at risk" who feel that their home SHOULD be in the milieu they're living in. I would bet that a LOT of women are in this position because
- they weren't allowed to ask questions and had their voices taken away (another meaning to "ain habayshan lomed"?)
- are seeing too many people not walking the walking, and on top of that, behaving in horrible ways

I also think that there are a lot of people with profound intellectual questions, some of which may not have satisfactory answers in this world.

And there might be some crossover.

I'm simplifying here; it would be good to hear from people coming from other places, or who can elaborate.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:35 pm

chavamom wrote:

I get it, but you are focusing a spotlight on the problems you see here. There are plenty of problems of emunah in the MO world too, they are just different problems and ones not often illustrated on "imamother". Maybe if you had a "imaMOmother" board, you might have more fodder Wink

thats cute Very Happy

yes freidasima I hear you. I have a problem with the things you mention. however I am a very different kind of chareidi I guess. I flat out refuse to buy into that garbage of I need to have a baby every year....bla bla bla so I cant be too bitter about it if I dont keep it right? I guess im lucky to have a husband who puts up with me.

but no thats not really what im referring to. (although those with those kind of issues would be welcome as well) im referring to other things.

schar vonesh
heaven and hell
bad things happening to good pple
drabbonan and deoraisa
male dominance (although to be fair its in the secular world as well)
medrashim
emunas chachomim (yes even MO rabbonim)
being the "chosen" nation
the format of our davening (how many times are we supposed to say the same thing over and over and over again)
and the all time favorite - mikvah, niddah status, impure versus pure....

all things that are part of modern orthodoxy as well

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:35 pm

amother wrote:

chavamom wrote:

thats cute Very Happy

forgot to mention that im the OP