Prioritizing Tuition (Split from School Closing)

↑ Chayalle ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 11:26 am

tovasara wrote:

Chayalle: sounds like you are the type of kollel family we need in my community. Please don't say the word leech about yourself, it certainly does not sound like it applies.

Thanks. But it does bother me. Reading this thread was an eye opener - thinking that others have to struggle to make up for my shortfall.

I grew up in a large family, where my father had a respectable job but struggled to pay tuition because there were lots of them. In the same school system, there were large families with same number of children where the father was in Kollel, and they paid a miniscule amount. In shul on Yom Tov, those kids were dressed way fancier, with current newest styles, then we were.

I'm not begrudging anyone anything - I'm just saying, if it's a question of priorities, everyone has to think seriously and honestly whether tuition is their priority.

↑ amother

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 11:39 am

The question of paying tuition v. having more kids has been bothering me ever since my first DC got accepted to the nursery program. My husband and I both work full time. We are not making great $ but can afford basic things. However, I cannot see how we can afford to pay full tuition for 2+ kids. Unless we starve, don't ever buy new things, rent a very small apartment, etc. Ideally, I always wanted to have 3 or 4 kids. That was before I became frum. Now I see that I cannot afford it. Let's say we decide to have more kids, and send some of them, or all, or girls only to PS. I wonder what's gonna happen when the shidduchim time comes. I will for sure be asked why we sent to PS. Will my answer "b/c we wanted to have more kids" be justified? I wonder how many kids go to PS in Brooklyn.

↑ Mama Bear ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 11:45 am

zipporah wrote:

Mama Bear wrote:

One of the reasons that chasidish schools can keep their tuition low is that - sadly, they pay their teachers and rebbes VERY LITTLE.

the typical elementary school teacher in Satmar makes about $150 a week. A High school teacher makes about $50 per period. The Rebbes take on evening tutoring jobs, and manage to survive because they get free tuition and camp, and a fund for marrying off their children. We dont have fancy extracurricular activities, computer labs (except in 11th and 12th grade), sports, trips etc etc. that should cost so much money. Plus, there is the annual fundraiser, there are nadvanim that give generously, and there is a separate building fund when a new building is purchased.

Mama- do they get full tuition for however many kids they have?

I didnt chap what your question was.

yes, the melamdim (and possibly high school teachers) get free tuition no matter how big their family is. I think lately they have been charging for camp though, but not full price.

natrualgeek ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 11:57 am

I have a three year old boy, tuition for kindergarten will be $8,000 this coming September.
Both my husband and I work decent jobs.
Yet we can not fathom being able to afford another child at these prices.
It a fact I would have to downsize everything as well as rely on other people for help.
just feeding and clothing our family of three is crazy let alone another child?
We would love to have a big family but realistically as tuition and cost of living an Orthodox life goes up the probability of us having a large family unfortunately goes way down.
We are not the kind of people who will just go for it and deal with the consequences later, If I can not see myself finding money to pay tuition and clothing I will not have another baby.
We support ourselves with no outside help and we plan on leaving it that way!

↑ Chayalle ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 12:20 pm

natrualgeek wrote:

I just want to share, with hugs and sympathy, that every time I had another child I wondered how on earth we would manage. And B"H many times blessings came from unexpected sources. Because after all, DH and I do feel (and we try to believe it on a practical level, though it's hard) that Hashem is in charge of our finances.

We do live in a community where the cost of living is much lower than other cities. I have family members who are not Kollel who live here for similar reasons.

↑ Mirabelle

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 12:43 pm

natrualgeek wrote:

8k? That's cheap! I'm looking at 12k for yeshiva day school kindergarten next year!

↑ JAWSCIENCE ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 1:37 pm

The assumption that someone with a "good" career, like being a physician, can pay for their kids tuition plus should be able to cough up enough money to pay for everyone else's kids is ridiculous. Show me the average physician or lawyer who can pay 10K for their 5 kids plus 10K for your 8 kids a year. Remember that these same people do not qualify for any gov. programs so they are paying for food, health insurance, rent/mortgage, etc. all by themselves. If both people work then there's also a daycare/nanny bill added on. They are just as Jewish as you, which means they have the same high cost of living an orthodox life. They might struggle to pay for their own kids tuitions. To saddle them with the bill for others who have made different life choices is not going to work.

Sometimes I wonder what people who do not work, or work in jobs where they can decide to work 3 days a week etc. think the rest of make and what our bills look like. We are not millionares. After all the bills, someone can still have very little left over. Look at the thread a while back from the couple making 100K that can barely save anything. It is not fair to look at other people and say "they have a job, they are not supporting the school enough."

Saying a physicians base salary is higher than a therapists may seem like a simple statement but it is not. Physician salary varies a lot based on specialty and compensation is likely to change a lot when Obamacare sets in. They have 100-250K in student loans and many business related expenses like malpractice, office space etc. to pay. In the beginning, they might even take home less than a therapist. And training is a heck of a lot longer. Meaning in their best child bearing years they cannot afford to pay your kids tuition on top of their own. The idea of the "wealthy physician" or "wealthy lawyer" etc. who can foot the bill for everyone is a thing of the past. There are much fewer true extremely wealthy people these days and far more people in need of assistance.

I agree that our generation relies way too much on the baby boomer generation (many of whom cannot retire because they are supporting all their kids) and something is going to give in a terrible way when those people are no longer able to work/ are no longer with us.

Perhaps a better solution would be for scholarships to stop being a blanket tuition forgiveness program and to structure them along the lines of a mortgage. You can't pay your full tuition now? No problem. You can afford 200 a month, and that's what you will pay right now.But you will go on paying that 200 a month even after your child graduates until you have fulfilled your total tuition requirement. In this way after several years the school would have a steady source of income outside of just tuition, that is not dependent on the kindness of donors. And yes, rabeim and families will have to face the reality that results from their psak and find workable solutions.

↑ yummymummy ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 1:41 pm

JAWSCIENCE wrote:

Perhaps a better solution would be for scholarships to stop being a blanket tuition forgiveness program and to structure them along the lines of a mortgage. You can't pay your full tuition now? No problem. You can afford 200 a month, and that's what you will pay right now.But you will go on paying that 200 a month even after your child graduates until you have fulfilled your total tuition requirement. In this way after several years the school would have a steady source of income outside of just tuition, that is not dependent on the kindness of donors. And yes, rabeim and families will have to face the reality that results from their psak and find workable solutions.

Great idea!

↑ JAWSCIENCE ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 1:42 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

A communal tax would work if it were across the board in the community. If in order to get aliyot in shul or use the mikvah (regular and keilim) or use any other services of the community, you would pay up [lets say after being there for one year or something]. Its the same system as how public school gets funded. It would work if it were across the board as long as the community wasn't all young, small families. This is only really likely to work in large communities with a variety of ages.

Oh and in case anyone is interested, I earn a good chunk less than the median salary.

I think it is dangerous to put a tax on the mikvah.
1) There are already people who do not pay the full amount of the mikvah price because they can't. I am sure they would be "exempted" from the tax by their rabbi's and thus you are just extorting money out of the same people who pay their bills in a different way.
2)Some people use the mikvah who do not keep any other mitzvot in my neighborhood. Taxing the mikvah would cause them not come, and the important mitzvah of tahars hamishpacha would be lost from many families
3)The mikvah has a hard enough time supporting itself sometimes.

I like the idea of having an innovative solution like an across the board tax, but I feel the same rules that are currently applies to tuition breaks would be applied to the tax. Thus it would solve absolutely nothing.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 1:43 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

zipporah wrote:

Mama Bear wrote:

Mama- do they get full tuition for however many kids they have?

In Lakewood that is not the case, they get free for a certain number of children (I think it's 2 girls and 2 boys in the schools that have girls and boys devisions).

↑ tovasara ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 1:49 pm

yummymummy wrote:

JAWSCIENCE wrote:

Great idea!

It's definitely an idea that's a step in the right direction. Part of the problem in our community is that instead of scholarship, it's tuition forgiveness. At least when there is a scholarship fund the money is made up from somewhere, but my impression is that's not the case in our school.

↑ zipporah

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 1:49 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I have two girls in elementary school. I pay $3600 per child (plus some registration fees, etc...). Full is about $4500 (varies a bit by school).

This is much less than in other areas in greater metro (NY NJ) and I believe it is due to a) lower costs, simpler standards, less extras and b) everyone has to pay tuition, limited discounts.

What your school administration needs to do is write a book! I thought tuition in my old area was cheap at 7K through 8th grade...

What is the teacher/student ratio?

Why can't we work through this model? Basic tuition capped at 5K per year... everybody has to pay at least 80%... extras available at your cost.