Prioritizing Tuition (Split from School Closing)

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tovasara ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 3:41 am

RE: communal tax

Don't you think the tax is going to be end up being paid only by people paying tuition anyway? (Ok, there might be contributions by people who don't have kids in school anymore, but who but a few could still afford it) There are a lot of problems here but I sum them up as

1. schools do not have enough money to function/pay their faculties
2. some people who can afford to pay more tuition aren't
3. school boards are generally made up of the wealthy who have no idea what it's like to live month to month and scrimp and save. So how are they supposed to make it their priority to work on these issues.

I don't now about anyone else, thankful as I am for my children and my job, I'm tired of the fact that tuition is going up every year instead of the schools looking to get more money from the families who can afford to pay more but aren't.

I'm all for scholarships for large families and for people who are unfortunately out of work. but I'm tired of people with the nicest sheitels and cleaning ladies not giving some of that up to pay more tuition. I"m not asking or expecting someone to give up their cleaning lady completely and walk around with a shmata on their head, but the topic here is prioritizing tuition. If someone reduced their cleaning lady's hours in order to give that money to the school, that would be somewhat prioritizing.

GreenEyes26

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 4:33 am

tovasara wrote:

That's not fair. We don't live in a socialist country. Tuition should not be higher for people "You feel can afford it" because it's none of your business. People shouldn't have to give up the luxuries they've worked hard for it they already pay full tuition. It's not rich people's responsibility to give the poor families a free ride. Maybe they should get off their butts and get a job instead of learning in kollel when they're 45 with 8 kids and not expect a free handout.

↑ sarahd ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 4:39 am

I think tovasara is referring to people with nice sheitels and cleaning help who are not paying full tuition.

↑ chavamom ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 4:57 am

sarahd wrote:

I think tovasara is referring to people with nice sheitels and cleaning help who are not paying full tuition.

↑ Mama Bear ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 5:11 am

zipporah wrote:

Mama- do they get full tuition for however many kids they have?

Even "Full tuition" is cheap. I believe I'm paying full tuition, less than $200/mo.
Of cours there are discounts for larger families. but it's not 'covered by scholarships' or covered by other people; it's simply a 'discount'.

↑ Mama Bear ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 5:13 am

Raisin wrote:

sarahd wrote:

Teachers are not rebbeim. Rebbeim presumably make more than female teachers.

why?

because teachers work about 3 hours a day. Rebbes work anywhere from 5-8 hours a day. Plus, theyre their families breadwinners; most teachers do it for a hobby, to get out of the house, or supplement their ffamily incomes.

↑ Mama Bear ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 5:15 am

chavamom wrote:

Even with free camp and tuition - you have to pay rent and eat. How can anyone do this?

That is why most teachers are single girls. Once they get married, unless they have rich parents supporting them, they end up working in offices.

or if they really dont want to give up teaching, they work afternoons in offices, tutor, etc.

I had 2 sil's who were fantastic first grade teachers. once they were engaged, they went to work at a 'real job' sadly.

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 5:25 am

A communal tax would work if it were across the board in the community. If in order to get aliyot in shul or use the mikvah (regular and keilim) or use any other services of the community, you would pay up [lets say after being there for one year or something]. Its the same system as how public school gets funded. It would work if it were across the board as long as the community wasn't all young, small families. This is only really likely to work in large communities with a variety of ages.

Oh and in case anyone is interested, I earn a good chunk less than the median salary.

↑ chavamom ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 5:31 am

From the US census bureau:

Quote:

The overall median personal income for all individuals over the age of 18 was $25,149

. And you're an engineer?

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 5:41 am

chavamom wrote:

From the US census bureau:

Quote:

The overall median personal income for all individuals over the age of 18 was $25,149

. And you're an engineer?

That also includes my friend in Missipi who works about 3 months out of the year and earns less than $10,000. She's not Jewish so she doesn't have tuition to worry about. Confused

And yes, I'm an engineer.

I wonder what people think of professional salaries - to me, at least in the NY area, its $50,000+.

↑ Hashem_Yaazor ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 6:10 am

saw50st8 wrote:

According to NY Job Source, Mechanical Engineers earn a mean annual salary of $83,830.

(I think this is what saw was referring to.)

↑ chavamom ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 6:18 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

According to NY Job Source, Mechanical Engineers earn a mean annual salary of $83,830.

(I think this is what saw was referring to.)

I hope!

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 6:21 am

chavamom wrote:

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

According to NY Job Source, Mechanical Engineers earn a mean annual salary of $83,830.

(I think this is what saw was referring to.)

I hope!

Yes. That was in direct response to the woman who claimed therapists don't earn professional salaries like lucrative careers (engineering and physicians). Um, therapists earn comparable salaries to engineers in the NY area (and I would assume around the country the trend would follow). Physicians typically earn double (or more) but do have major student loans and malpractice insurance.

ETA: I earn more than $25,000 a year.

↑ Mama Bear ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 6:28 am

Therapists make about $45- an hour.
Most therapists are mothers of young children and they like to be home for them in the afternoon, plus most kids are pretty cranky past 3 p.m. anyway, so most therapists end up working 3 or 4 days a week for 6 hours.

↑ tovasara ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 6:46 am

Thank you sarahd and chavamom for understanding what I meant.

Regarding a communal tax for using the mikvah, etc., unless SOMEONE steps in and does SOMETHING, it's going to be the same story again. Kollel families will say they can't afford it and their rabbanim will presumably back them up. I'm not against Kollel, but I'm against Kollel families remaining in Kollel for an EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME, while receiving tuition breaks, while my tuition keeps going up.

I want to gather a group of full tuition paying parents (or even people who aren't paying full tuition but are paying more than their fair share for their income and family size) and approach my kids' school to tell them we are not paying a penny more next year. But since people don't want to stand up for what's right, I'm either on my own or I'll have to pay more again next year while my neighbor continues to have tons of cleaning help instead of paying more tuition.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 7:54 am

Reading TovaSara's last post got me to think - as a Kollel parent FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME, how much of a discount do I get from my children's school?

So fairly simple math - I took the price I pay for DD's tuition and devided it by the full tuition price. I got 80%.

Living a fairly simple life style with my DH in Kollel, no government programs whatsoever, no outside cleaning help, I have finally classified myself as a 20% leech on society for the tuition break.

Oh dear....I'm now trying to decide if it's worth it.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 7:58 am

I want to add the following: In Lakewood, as I understand it, if the Kollel discount would be very big then there would be hardly any tuition-paying parents...because there are so many in Kollel. Therefore it's not as substantial as elsewhere. Conversely, I believe the full tuition rate is lower than elsewhere (since they are collecting more tuition dollars from the entire parent body.)

Perhaps this is a model that could help other communities? (I'm going to put on a bullet proof vest....)

↑ tovasara ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 8:01 am

Chayalle: sounds like you are the type of kollel family we need in my community. Please don't say the word leech about yourself, it certainly does not sound like it applies.

↑ zipporah ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 8:02 am

Chayalle wrote:

What's the tuition, ow many kids do you have, and how do you manage?

↑ Chayalle ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 8:08 am

hycup wrote:

chavamom wrote:

saw50st8, I ran your whole premise of those who have no plan to pay full tuition and yet - *gasp* - keep having kids by my husband and the "being a drain on society". His comment was that you are relying on a totally non-Jewish concept. Much as secular society taxes everyone to provide for schools regardless of if they are using them, the Jewish community has an obligation to provide schools to educate Jewish children in a torahdik fashion. Not everyone has the wherewithal to pay full tuition for "x" number of children - and even if they did, tuition wouldn't cover the expenses of the school. We as a community have an obligation to support the schools (something the chassidish communities seem to be doing a much better job at). Notions of being a "leech" or a "drain on society" not to mention saying "oh, we'd love to have more kids, but we can't afford full tuition" are just......non jewish. Seriously, has anyone asked a rav if this is a valid reason not to have more children? If there are no other factors involved?

I couldn't have said it better.

And just to stir the pot a little more...

amother wrote:

I was not quoting you Chava. Someone else used this phrase. But I am a member of the STL community that is asked time and again to support the ones who can not pay. And I will forever be frustrated by this issue of family size in the frum community. It's one thing to lose your job or have issues that mean you can no longer pay for food, tuition, etc for the x amt of kids you already have. But I 100% hold by my opinion that it is an unfair burden to others in one's community to increase your family size when already in such a position and just ask for more assistance.
The $11K it costs to educate a child annually is a huge amount. If you can not afford that, it is another $11K fundraised from people like us, or another $11K in debt for the school. Why is this not a factor in family planning?

To all those of you who are arguing what is in bold, I presume then that you do not donate to ATIME, Bonei Olam, Ephrat, or Zir Chemed, since if the couples undergoing IVF can't afford their treatments, then they shouldn't be an "unfair" burden on their brothers. After all, Hashem didn't give them children for a reason, and after all so many families who can have children naturally are not having anymore, since they can't afford them so why bring more jewish children into the world that the community can't afford... it is a completely goyeshe concept not to have more children for financial reasons. There is no Jewish concept for this, not in the Torah, gemera, rambam, shulchan aruch... no where!

This is exactly what I was thinking, reading that thread.

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