Prioritizing Tuition (Split from School Closing)

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↑ amother ↓

Sun, Nov 07 2010, 1:00 pm

yummymummy wrote:

This is a really nasty post and I for one could care less what some anonymous amother's husband thinks of another poster. Embarrassed to use your SN for trash talk like this?

You're absolutely right. I went to report the post, and it has already been flagged. saw50, I apologize.

↑ chavamom ↓

Sun, Nov 07 2010, 1:00 pm

In Europe there was a kehilla tax that supported the schools. There is a problem in that it can't be enforced and then all the technicalities of who gets what money, etc. Personally, I do think that despite the difficulties, communities should try to institute a kehilla tax.

I'm not sure what you are arguing though. That it's not really a communal responsibility?

↑ Atali ↓

Sun, Nov 07 2010, 1:01 pm

MommyZ wrote:

chavamom wrote:

I'd love for vouchers to be constitutional, in theory, but I have a hard time making that argument. I also think there is a very good chance they could bankrupt entire school districts like the one I live in where a huge number of children are in private schools, either Jewish, Catholic or private prep school

Maybe if public schools had to work to earn the money they were given and show results we'd all be better off as a country. Maybe then more parents would send their kids there.

Right. The idea is that vouchers would provide competition that would force the public schools to improve.

Given that funding for all sorts of secular things in private schools (textbooks, bussing, etc.) is legal in some states, it is not much of a legal to leap to allow vouchers, especially if the vouchers are only designed to cover the secular portion of the day.

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Sun, Nov 07 2010, 1:12 pm

amother wrote:

yummymummy wrote:

This is a really nasty post and I for one could care less what some anonymous amother's husband thinks of another poster. Embarrassed to use your SN for trash talk like this?

You're absolutely right. I went to report the post, and it has already been flagged. saw50, I apologize.

That's ok. I'm not upset by being attacked. I'm a big girl and know my position isn't popular :-)

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Sun, Nov 07 2010, 1:15 pm

chavamom wrote:

That as a community we don't really take responsibility for it.

If we truly did, (meaning, lets say each family in a sizeable kehilla constributed $10,000/year across the board), tuition would be small or non-existant. Even with large families. But most people stop contributing to schools once their kids are out (or on small levels) because now they are helping their kids with college or supporting them in kollel or helping them with their kids tuition. Its like a never ending catch-up game.

I think my generation is resting too much on the baby boomer generation's wealth and hard work. Only with the economy, many who are thinking of retiring now have to pull the plug and its showing.

[And just to let you all know, I really am a nice, charitable person, despite my hardline here]

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Sun, Nov 07 2010, 1:17 pm

Oh and to answer about tuition repayments, Chavamom, if my mother ever needed the money, I would absolutely repay her. My grandparents also donated generously to my education fund, and unfortunately both of them passed away recently. But I would have given them my last dime if they needed.

I also didn't go to seminary and worked in labs in school, so my tuition wasn't much more than a year in seminary.

↑ chavamom ↓

Sun, Nov 07 2010, 1:17 pm

OK, I'll agree with you there. But I think that's where the real problem lies.

↑ Tablepoetry

Sun, Nov 07 2010, 1:31 pm

chavamom wrote:

yummymummy wrote:

chavamom wrote:

saw50st8, I ran your whole premise of those who have no plan to pay full tuition and yet - *gasp* - keep having kids by my husband and the "being a drain on society". His comment was that you are relying on a totally non-Jewish concept. Much as secular society taxes everyone to provide for schools regardless of if they are using them, the Jewish community has an obligation to provide schools to educate Jewish children in a torahdik fashion. Not everyone has the wherewithal to pay full tuition for "x" number of children - and even if they did, tuition wouldn't cover the expenses of the school. We as a community have an obligation to support the schools (something the chassidish communities seem to be doing a much better job at). Notions of being a "leech" or a "drain on society" not to mention saying "oh, we'd love to have more kids, but we can't afford full tuition" are just......non jewish. Seriously, has anyone asked a rav if this is a valid reason not to have more children? If there are no other factors involved?

To me it sounds like saw50St8 is trying to argue against the "free rider" problem, which is what happens when enough people use the arguments you've listed above to shirk their financial responsibilities.

Sigh. And I'm arguing the fact that while there are few of us that can afford $10K/per kid tuition (heck, even a middle class family with only ONE kid would find that a stretch) it doesn't inform our decisions on when we are yotzei pru u'revu.

And to the Israeli poster - do you seriously think the gov't only subsidizes charedi education???? You could use your same logic to say that ghetto schools shouldn't get gov't funds, b/c, you know, they don't pay as much into the system, they are POOR.

Ummm...did you read my post at all? Who said the gov't only subsidizes charedi education????? DL, secular.....they are all subsidized, baruch hashem.
I never said charedi schools shouldn't be subsidized (well, not in this thread, lol). All I said is that the charedi sector is lucky that schools are almost free here, since of all the sectors they can least afford tuition (btw, the DL sector here often does pay relatively high tuition for high school).

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Sun, Nov 07 2010, 1:50 pm

chavamom wrote:

OK, I'll agree with you there. But I think that's where the real problem lies.

To be fair to the older generation, they are still often footing the bill for many things for their children. So they feel like they are "doing their part." Kind of hard to argue with them on that.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Sun, Nov 07 2010, 2:43 pm

Some hold two boys is peru urevu. Some hold 4 of the same gender. There are various shittas it's a question for a rav. Some hold IVF is not peru urevu. Some hold adoption is peru urevu. Yes, some hold 2 is enough. I can acknowledge a shitta I don't hold by...

That said personally I wouldn't limit for financial reasons unless it meant being hungry (as opposed to no tuition).

↑ Mama Bear ↓

Sun, Nov 07 2010, 3:48 pm

One of the reasons that chasidish schools can keep their tuition low is that - sadly, they pay their teachers and rebbes VERY LITTLE.

the typical elementary school teacher in Satmar makes about $150 a week. A High school teacher makes about $50 per period. The Rebbes take on evening tutoring jobs, and manage to survive because they get free tuition and camp, and a fund for marrying off their children. We dont have fancy extracurricular activities, computer labs (except in 11th and 12th grade), sports, trips etc etc. that should cost so much money. Plus, there is the annual fundraiser, there are nadvanim that give generously, and there is a separate building fund when a new building is purchased.

↑ yummymummy ↓

Sun, Nov 07 2010, 4:30 pm

chavamom wrote:

Actually, I think it's that pesky constitution that keeps getting in the way...

OK, I've been gone for a bit but I wanted to respond that the voucher/tax credit issue is not so black and white. If allowing tax deductions for charitable donations to religious institutions is not a violation of the separation between church and state then there are certainly ways to structure tuition vouchers and or tax credits the would pass consitutional muster as well.

melalyse

Sun, Nov 07 2010, 9:41 pm

It's very easy for someone with a very high paying salary to talk like this. I have a master's degree in one of the therapies and I work and my husband has a very respectable job, but you know what, when my second child starts school I don't think that we are are going to be able to pay full tuition for 2, since we are struggling for 1. Are people not supposed to go into respectable fields - social work, teaching, PT, OT etc and only go into engineering, medicine etc. so we can pay tuition. Not everyone has skills or the will to do those things. I also don't think that it is an obligation on me to get a second job after coming home at 4:30 to make more money. I also don't think that my child's school would expect that of me, and I don't think that they would expect me to be eating rice and beans every night for dinner to give them the few dollars extra that I would save. I don't think that these things are expected. That is why there are scholarships, and if they don't think it is warranted, it wouldn't be given.

↑ zipporah ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 1:36 am

Mama Bear wrote:

Mama- do they get full tuition for however many kids they have?

↑ chavamom ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 1:42 am

Mama Bear wrote:

Even with free camp and tuition - you have to pay rent and eat. How can anyone do this?

Quote:

there are nadvanim that give generously

And that's the part I'm talking about.

Mrs. XYZ

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 2:18 am

chavamom wrote:

Mama Bear wrote:

Even with free camp and tuition - you have to pay rent and eat. How can anyone do this?

(food stamps, medicaid...)

sarahd ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 3:33 am

Teachers are not rebbeim. Rebbeim presumably make more than female teachers.

↑ Raisin

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 4:22 am

sarahd wrote:

Teachers are not rebbeim. Rebbeim presumably make more than female teachers.

why?

↑ sarahd ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 5:27 am

Because supposedly they are the ones supporting their families so they need more money than moros who, I dunno, are only teaching for the fun of it.

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 6:33 am

melalyse wrote:

Can I say that your post is the funniest thing I've read in a long time?

According to NY Job Source, Mechanical Engineers earn a mean annual salary of $83,830.
According to NY Job Source, Occupational Therapists earn a mean annual salary of $70,420.
According to NY Job Source, Physical Therapists earn a mean annual salary of $76,970.
According to NY Job Source, Speech Language Pathologists earn a mean annual salary of $73,570.

So while mechanical engineers early a little bit more, you aren't talking about a huge gap in salary. Plus, that's job dependant so a therapist can earn more than an engineer. I'm laughing that someone would call a career in therapies "not a professional salary" and I also think its funny to lump engineers with Physicians who typically earn twice what an engineer makes.

Most therapists I know don't make that kind of money because they work part time. It would be nice if I could work part time.

If you already know you can't afford tuition for #2, what are you doing to change? What expenses are you reducing? Are you making sure to save extra every month? And yes, this is an attitude that drives me crazy "I know I can't afford it, but that's what scholarships are for. So I don't need to do anything to change."

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