Prioritizing Tuition (Split from School Closing)

chewymomma

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 9:31 pm

Both parents working full-time isn't always a good answer. I am an attorney, and in most cases attorneys have good salaries. I worked full-time before I got laid off, and childcare was so expensive that I barely brought anything home (no, we did not have state-of-the art childcare, but I did need to hire someone to pick up my kids from school and watch them until my husband or I came home). Certainly not enough that we could afford full tuition. We have my student loans to pay off, without which I would not have been able to become an attorney. My husband also has a good job, but he makes an average salary. He is doing everything he can to get promoted and make himself more marketable, but nobody is getting huge raises or bonuses in this economic climate. Parents are suffering under such a huge burden with tuition costs, and it is unfair and unrealistic to suggest that they are doing something wrong if they can't afford it. It's even worse to say that only the children of the wealthy deserve a jewish education.

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 9:59 pm

chavamom wrote:

chaimsmom wrote:

chavamom wrote:

Raise your hand if there is someone saw50st8 hasn't offended yet.

raising my hand

Yes, well your neighborhood leech will remember that. I think it's highly problematic to call anyone who can't afford $10K/kid to educate their kid a "leech". But hey chaimsmom, nice to see you around.

Not quite.

If you can't afford tuition, and don't come up with a plan to be able to, that's called being a leech.

I don't think Yeshiva education is only for the rich. But I do think if you can't afford full price, you should be placing as much money as possible into tuition. Or coming up with a cheaper alternative.

Remember, the concept of full time yeshiva education for the entire Jewish population is relatively new.

↑ BoomChickaPop ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 10:02 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

HappyHome wrote:

farm wrote:

Quote:

Raise your hand if there is someone saw50st8 hasn't offended yet.

hand raised

I'm raising my hand to. I appreciate SAW's posts, I think it's shocking how many people are getting tuition breaks and are walking around with "wants" that they could do without. At least they should be quiet about it, the fact that they will openly say that they have a break and still have luxaries shows what a big problem we have on our hands. Obviously unemployment or having low income is something else, but if you have a bugaboo, regular cleaning help, a nice car, a hefty mortgage, then you should be prioritizing your expenses and tuition should be way up there in your priorities.

Just for the sake of argument (if you don't know me, you should know I am extremely anti-wasting money and expensive things for name only) -- if that Bugaboo was a gift, the nice car was a parent's 2 year hand me down after the lease expired: what bearing does that have to do on how expenses are prioritized? You can't judge people's budgeting based on things. You have no idea where they came from. And the parents who might be happy to give a top of the line stroller for their precious little ainekel might not be willing to donate that $750 to the school.

If parents are giving their child a bugaboo and a 2 year old car, and that same child cannot pay her childrens tuition then I would say that the priorities are messed up, I'm sure those parents want their grandchildren in yeshiva, where are their priorities? I guess in this case I would question the grandparents priorities, I'm not sure...

↑ Hashem_Yaazor ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 10:08 pm

Saw -- who are you to say that they aren't trying to pay as much as possible? Not everyone is paying bare minimum tuition. I don't know about many schools, but my son's school and my hometown's schools look at your financial situation and give a tuition judgement based on that. If you can pay more than someone else, you're asked to.

Happy -- yes, priorities are messed up, but not all grandparents are of the same hashkafah as their children's home...but also, a bugaboo is a one time expense that will last a lot of children (say a Graco lasts 2 kids, tops... and say someone has 8 kids. 4*150 == 600. A Bugaboo for 650 which pushes easier and will last all the kids might be a sound investment. Not that I go for one, but I can hear the logic.) The car at the end of the lease might have been the best option for obtaining a vehicle. Either way, you can't judge gifts.
Or anything for that matter.

↑ Mama Bear ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 10:29 pm

I love how the bugaboo is the be all and end all of all arguments... ladies, no one in the frum community pushes a bugaboo for the name of it, just because it's the most comfortable stroller ever. easy to push, lasts and lasts and lasts. Heck, I'm starting to put money into a petty cash envelope now, I'm not even pregnant, but I want to save up some money that when I have another baby, I can fargin myself a bugaboo, because it's way easier to push than a graco or maclaren. and easier to shlep up a flight of stairs.

there are more expensive strollers than bugaboo, it's not even the most expensive stroller.

if a grandparent makes a 1-time payment to her grandchild's yeshiva of $700,that'll cover, what - 1 month? 2? and the new baby will still go around in an old wobbly stroller.

I really dont understand how a couple owning a bugaboo is such an end-of-the-world thing.

hey, we dont have a car. or a house. or plans to buy one. But yes, I want the most comfortable, easy to push stroller, since I'll be walking everywhere.

↑ BoomChickaPop ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 10:29 pm

HY, I don't have an answer, I hear you...I shouldn't judge anybody, but I thought this thread was about lack of priorities in tuition, I would argue, that if someone is walking around pushing a bugaboo and driving a 2 year old car and is not paying tuition that somewhere the priorities are not right. And like I said before, someone living this kind of lifestyle and getting a tuition break, should be ashamed to tell anyone that they have a break, it's something they should keep to themselves. A friend of mine once told me that her close friend doesn't pay tuition and spent over 300 dollars on upsherin pictures for her son, does that make sense? Of course, I shouldn't be judging...

the world's best mom ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 10:37 pm

I read the first few pages of this thread then skipped to the last 2. Let me warn you, Saw50, I am a leech. I do not pay full tuition. Let's see what I can do to change this:

-get a full time job. Won't work. My children have medical issues that require numerous doctor/ therapy visits and my time is filled up with that. Even dh had to take off from work once a week last April through June to take a family trip to Philadelphia for treatment for dd's clubfeet. I did write a book, but noone has expressed any interest in publishing it yet.

-get a cheaper car. No such thing. We got the cheapest used car that we could find. We spent $3000 on it. Getting rid of it is impossible due to all the appointments we have to go to.

-Spend less on clothing. My kids wear hand-me-down. I wore a ripped shirt yesterday and today my shirt is missing a button. I could use some new clothing but won't spend the money. What I do have is very inexpensive. My shoes are from Payless.

-Spend less on extra luxeries. I went to buy a new mop this week. The only one they had in the store cost $16, which is more than I'd like to spend, so I didn't buy it. I still use my old one which has close to nothing left to it. My cleaning lady, who comes 2 hours a week, is NOT a luxery. Having kids like mine makes scrubbing toilets impossible. I started having a cleaning lady weekly only after I had 2 kids.

-sell my jewelry. That's an idea. I never wear it anyway. But the only peice of value I have is my engagement ring, average size. It wouldn't help much.

-Have fewer kids. We only have 3 so far. That's not a ton.

-move to a smaller/cheaper apartment. We have one and a half bedrooms. I know only one person who pays lower rent than I do.

-send them to public school. My kids would be the only frum kids in a school full of some of the lowest low lives that exist. There was one other Frum kid who went to public high school here. He went off the Derech. The statistics aren't that great.

Any ideas?

↑ realeez ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 10:42 pm

HappyHome wrote:

Not that anyone is offering me such gifts, but really, how many parents would go for the "I'd rather you buy me the 2007 minivan instead of the 2009 one and take the difference and pay it to my child's tuition?" You can't exactly do that! I know even with wedding presents, I got an expensive present and probably would have rather the cash instead but what could I do lol!

I wonder if part of the problem is in the fact that tuition prices are high - like if family X has 5 kids and pay $5K a kid instead of $10K to a total of $25K vs $50K, and they spend $500 in a year on "extras" according to the Imamother Tuition Committee, will that $500 change all that much to bring her closer to the full tuition?

fromnj

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 10:54 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Are those children asking for the parents to give to the yeshiva instead? I'm going to bet not.

I think the tuition crisis is actually people not taking responsibility for their finances. Yeshivot need to be paid. Teachers need to be paid. The plumber needs to be paid. The gas company needs to be paid. IF you can't afford it, find another way because you are hurting the school. If that means your rent rather than buy or have fewer kids, then do it. Don't wait to be rescued by "tzedakah."

I'm a full-time WOH divorced mom with two kids. I don't get scholarship. Yes, I have cleaning help. I work and take night classes to get a graduate degree so I can continue to support my children. What if being able to support one's family was the paramount value in the Jewish community? I would feel better about that.

gryp ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 10:58 pm

I can't believe this entire discussion was started by a poster whose parents paid for her education.

Saw, get back to this thread in 5 years when you've entered the real world.

Do you realize that it sounds like all you've done in this thread was pat yourself on the back? When your parents made sure you didn't have student loans to pay off, to boot.

Have you paid your parents back yet? Surely you wouldn't want to leech off of them.

How insulting and disrespectful to those who work their kishkes out to earn an extra dollar and still can barely pay the bills. A little compassion. The reason you've been able to save is because G-d willed it, nothing more and nothing less. And He didn't will it for others.

I was impressed by two posts in this thread:
A) by the amother who wrote about the insane amount of hired administrators Thumbs Up

B) by the amother who clarified for those who forgot that there is actually a G-d who runs this world and decides how much people will earn on a yearly basis. Thumbs Up

↑ BoomChickaPop

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 11:22 pm

fromnj wrote:

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I wonder if the child that got the 2 year old car and bugaboo (sorry MB) from their parent ended up with a problem in their house that required a 5K new boiler, would they ask their parents for help with that instead of another upcoming "gift" or would they ask their parents for the 5K so they can have heat in their home for the winter, if they can ask for that then why not for tuition.

TwinsMommy ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 11:33 pm

amother wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

DH and I aren't going to have 8 kids in large part because we can't afford it. Someone has to pay the bills.

Likewise, you might think that by working on Shabbos, you can increase your income. But it doesn't work that way. Hashem runs the world. You're taking Him out of the picture by taking personal responsibility and credit for everything you have in life.

Just as Hashem sends us children, He gives us what we need to provide for them. In my own case, after we already had several children in school, our tuition budget was maxed out. Our next child was getting old enough to start school, and I worried how we would come up with another tuition. Right before she started school, our income increased by the amount of her tuition. If I had trusted better, I needn't have worried.

Hashem knows what He's doing, the hard part is learning to really trust Him. There are many valid reasons to have fewer children, but saying you can't afford them is not one of them, especially when you and your husband are engineers. Just as you are willing to be moser nefesh (self sacrificing) to pay yeshiva tuition, you should likewise be moser nefesh to continue having children, and trust Hashem to provide for them. It says in Tehillim 127 that children are a gift form G-d. G-d wants to send you gifts, and you say no?

We are obligated to have children, and to provide our children with a Torah education. Sending them to a yeshiva to get that education is not required, so choosing to have fewer children in order to pay tuition isn't a valid argument. You mentioned homeschooling as an option. Have you considered homeschooling so you can have more children? Even if you hired tutors during the week to help teach them Torah, it would likely be cheaper than sending them all to yeshiva. Think about it.

Count me in as someone who had kids when we would have been able to pay full tuition, but after we had the kids, my husband lost his job. He's employed now, but not making what he was making. So..... we've got our kids in public school for the next few years (they need special ed anyway). If we're able to mainstream them into dayschool down the road, at this point it looks like we won't be able to pay full tuition, so we're done having kids. We'll ask nicely for a tuition break--- if we can't get one, we're not going to rant and rave about it. Public school has been good to us so far. I hope things change, we're able to pay full tuition for our 2 kids, and have more, but at this point it doesn't look likely.

"there are many valid reasons to have fewer children but saying you can't afford them is not one of them". I disagree. Because we will likely be leeches come tuition time, it's not our right to have more children at this time. Those who are paying full tuition and are self supporting can have all the kids they want.

↑ chavamom ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 11:47 pm

HappyHome wrote:

Our parents would not pay it. Period. I have to laugh - it's a really common assumption in the velt that parents are all willing to shell out for Jewish education. We've outright had administration that told us we should ask our parents for the $. My parents were still paying for their own children's educations until a couple of years ago (I'm the oldest of 5) and have made it ABUNDANTLY clear that while they like to give the occassional gift, any sort of support is not in the cards. And my IL's - let's just say it would have created such a rift in the family that I'm not sure if they would be talking to us today had we done such a thing.

↑ chavamom ↓

Fri, Nov 05 2010, 12:10 am

TwinsMommy wrote:

"there are many valid reasons to have fewer children but saying you can't afford them is not one of them". I disagree. Because we will likely be leeches come tuition time, it's not our right to have more children at this time. Those who are paying full tuition and are self supporting can have all the kids they want.

I don't think that most rabbis agree with you. You (an a number of others) have essentially said that we decide shitos on pru u'revu based on how wealthy you are. If you are wealthy (and let's face it, you have to be not just middle class, you have to be upper-middle-class and upward to afford full tuition) you are zoche to have children. If you are not - either you don't have the intellegence or luck or whatever - you have the choice of not being yotzei OR being "a leech". I don't think that passes muster in halacha most anywhere.

↑ amother ↓

Fri, Nov 05 2010, 12:19 am

TwinsMommy wrote:

Count me in as someone who had kids when we would have been able to pay full tuition, but after we had the kids, my husband lost his job. [....]
"there are many valid reasons to have fewer children but saying you can't afford them is not one of them". I disagree. Because we will likely be leeches come tuition time, it's not our right to have more children at this time. Those who are paying full tuition and are self supporting can have all the kids they want.

So if it isn't safe to have kids when you do have money (because you could lose your income, as happened to you), and if it isn't safe to have kids when you don't have money (because you'll "likely be leeches come tuition time"), then tell me - when IS it safe to have kids? Or should all people just not have any? And where does Hashem fit into the picture?

gold21

Fri, Nov 05 2010, 1:01 am

Tuition should be subsidized by the government. Having kids is not a right reserved for the rich. I know that means more taxes, but does it really? It is within my right as a citizen to send my child to public school, which would depend on tax money. So why can't we redirect some tax money to religious schools, if they follow a basic secular curriculum? Anyways if they need more tax money they should stop alternate side parking and street cleaning, and use the money saved by eliminating pointless street cleaners and evil traffic cops. LOL

↑ zipporah ↓

Fri, Nov 05 2010, 2:15 am

gold21 wrote:

I know someplace where the government subsidizes dayschool tuition. Yes

↑ Ruchel ↓

Fri, Nov 05 2010, 8:16 am

Barbara wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Saw,

Number 1 may be compromised on, or the kids would just be a bit different.
Number 2 is the same if it's a school under contract, if not compromises will have to be done. But if the schools are not under contract, they probably have a lot of common ground on this.

I disagree.

I assume that math wouldn't be much of an issue. But, for example, our school teaches the kids about evolution, the Big Bang Theory, etc., and doesn't view them as contrary to the Torah. I am guessing that the local black-hat yeshiva would not want their kids hearing these science lessons. Nor would I want *my* kid in a science curriculum that did not include these things. Our language arts department assigns as in-school reading, or permits as outside readings, books that include discussions of drug use, teenage s-xuality, and include gay characters and some obscenity. Again, I wouldn't expect that more right-wing schools would want their kids to read those books. I wouldn't want my kid to miss out on great literature.

Moreover, there is a difference in emphasis on secular studies.

Here, either you teach it all to follow the cursus, or you don't, and those who don't generally skip the same kind of things and have similar views on chol. A compromise would be reachable.
While all MO schools that I know of follow the whole thing (which doesn't mean it's not cleaned up more than public school, I'm told, for example reproduction), some charedi schools also follow it to be able to graduate.

The books we read in my (public) school didn't involve relations scenes. We did have a book with a gay character, Dorian Gray, but I bet no one saw it at the time.

I think there are enough clean or okay-ish books among classics. Room613 has a big list and it only includes English ones, I think.