Prioritizing Tuition (Split from School Closing)

↑ zipporah ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 12:42 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

As to mixing secular studies - that won't work for 100 reasons including:

1) Dress code (not necessarily sleeve length type things but "fashion" related - colors, haircuts, accesories)

2) Science - how exactly you teach it

3) Exposure to kids less frum - possible "bad" influences

In a place like Lakewood where the schools are close enough hashkafically, it may work. Other places, doubtful.

1) I went to a secular private school for 8 years. There was a uniform that was as strict as most dayschools I've seen, except you had a choice of long or short sleeves and socks vs stockings (but given that winter was 6 months long, stockings it was). If you have 3 or 4 approved colors, and no accessories allowed except earrings and a watch, what's the big deal? You need your own school because of someone's haircut?

2) For Science, make a basic level... whatever is the minimum required to be accredited, and anything above that is an elective.

3) You want to live in a ghetto, you pay for it. If your community supports that kind of behavior, they should help pay your tuition.

↑ MommyZ ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 12:42 pm

amother wrote:

MommyZ wrote:

Like I said before DH is working very hard and should move up in rank within the next few years. That promotion comes with a significant pay raise. Base salary for a Sgt. before uniform allowance, night shift differential, holiday pay and overtime is close to 100k a year. He is planning to take the next Sgt. exam and is eligible for promotion in 2 1/2-3 years. By then I should be finished with my undergraduate degree and hopefully working. Yes it's hard to find jobs in this economy but even if it hasn't picked up yet I will try to use whatever connections I have to get a job. This is my goal. It might not work out but at least I have a plan for how it could possibly work out.

MommyZ, I wish you all the best and I really hope that everything works out as it was planned. However, I know somebody who was planning to take Sgt exam. Guess what? There was no Sgt exam. It was cancelled. Looks like there is not going to be Sgt exam this year either. Nobody knows when it's going to be given next time. Same thing with other exams. You can't control that.

Rumor has it the next Sgt. exam will be in 2011 and if it is offered then DH will take it. Another option is that as soon as he gets out of Impact he'll get in touch with the white shield programs and see if he can apply there. Then he can take the Sgt. exam when it's offered and in the meantime pursue the Detective route. Obviously nothing in life is a given and our Mayor and Police Commissioner are hardly cop friendly. I didn't say that it will definitely happen. I said that is our hope and goal.

↑ Mama Bear ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 12:44 pm

I just want to ask this simple question:

The reason yiddishkeit died out in america in its first 100+ years was that there was no jewish education. Yiddishkeit cannot continue without Jewish education. Public school + afternoon hebrew school did not work. Entire generations were lost to Yiddishkeit. There is virtually no one frum today that can trace their ancestry back to an American ancestor of over 150 years ago with no break in frumkeit. In Europe, Bais Yaakovs were started when the girls were falling prey like flies to the enlightenment of secularism when they were saturated by public school values.

Public school is *not* an option for continuing our heritage. 8 hours a day of secular instruction? and tell me which frum child would still want to sit through another few hours of limudei kodesh (plus you'd still have to pay for those teachers/rebbeim and buildings anyway.)

Going back to public school for the entire student body of klal yisroel is not an option. Yeshivas must remain open. The only question is, how.

and I am of the camp that administrative bloat must be reduced. No need for multiple curriculum advisors and asisstant deans and consultants per school.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 12:48 pm

MommyZ wrote:

Rumor had it the next Sgt. exam will be given October 2010. Never happened. Due to low number of recruits for the past couple of years people get stuck in impact for a couple of years as oppose to half a year, as it used to be. Let's hope for the best. My DH, who is in the same line of business as yours, knows somebody who got a very good position he was dreaming about and had all skills for, but was unalbe to transfer from Impact b/c of shortage of staff. It's really sad.

↑ MommyZ ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 12:48 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

I just want to ask this simple question:

The reason yiddishkeit died out in america in its first 100+ years was that there was no jewish education. Yiddishkeit cannot continue without Jewish education. Public school + afternoon hebrew school did not work. Entire generations were lost to Yiddishkeit. There is virtually no one frum today that can trace their ancestry back to an American ancestor of over 150 years ago with no break in frumkeit.

Public school is *not* an option for continuing our heritage. 8 hours a day of secular instruction? and tell me which frum child would still want to sit through another few hours of limudei kodesh (plus you'd still have to pay for those teachers/rebbeim and buildings anyway.)

Going back to public school for the entire student body of klal yisroel is not an option. Yeshivas must remain open. The only question is, how.

and I am of the camp that administrative bloat must be reduced. No need for multiple curriculum advisors and asisstant deans and consultants per school.

DH's grandmother's family came to the US in the 1830's and her family has been frum ever since. There are families like that around today.

I agree with the rest.

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 12:51 pm

zipporah wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

My elementary school at one point had a rule "no stylish haircuts." So who's rules do we play by? The MO? The yeshivish? The JPF?

Science is not easy. Read Barbaras post.

And yes, living in a ghetto has its cost. I don't think most people want to leave their ghetto.

BTW, YWN just announced a school in Toronto is closing. I don't know the details more than in the article, but I can pretty much guarantee this is going to happen more and more.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 12:53 pm

I don't know about America, but in Europe often people sent where they could. The chief rabbi of France went to public school because there was no Jewish school. Period. I give him as example, but there are so many of our parents and grandparents generation, and many also of our generation. I'm talking FFB of all kinds here, shomer mitsvos to charedi.

Nowadays the frum ones who live in places with a Jewish school send there, unless they can't afford. Though still some have the idea that public school is neutral hence better than a school with a very different hashkafa, or even with a rebbe they hate.

Yes, charedi people too. Yes, I know personal examples.

I have heard recently from a totally neutral source that a certain teen was going to school with "religious Jews". I inquired more, and these families were the sheitel type, not the lite barely observant type. This, in the biggest kehila in Europe.

Quote:

8 hours a day of secular instruction? and tell me which frum child would still want to sit through another few hours of limudei kodesh

It's hard. Some end up ignorant. Doesn't mean off the derech.
Some end up in the best yeshivos, too.
Most in the middle.

That said Jewish school is the easiest and most secure option, that's for sure.

↑ MommyZ ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 12:54 pm

amother wrote:

MommyZ wrote:

Yes I'm well aware of those facts. DH graduated in Dec 08 and is still in impact. This December the first decent size class of recruits since DH's class will be graduating. DH's pct alone which is one of the "'A' Houses" (A Houses being 44, 46, 73, 75) will be getting around 70-80 of the new graduates or so the Inspector of his pct was told. DH also has 187 collars which is the most of anyone in Impact. He knows Penal Code, VTL, and Patrol Guide extremely well to the point that officers with many more years on then he has as well as bosses and ADA's/ADA supervisors ask him for advice. I know that doesn't mean much because in then end it's just a civil service exam and unless it's offered there's nothing he can do. The small glimmer of hope is that there is a class of 1200+ graduating the end of December that should push him and a lot of other officers out of Impact.

I think we should continue this discussion in the first responder forum? I don't want to bore the others with the cop talk.

Last edited by MommyZ on Thu, Nov 04 2010, 1:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ JAWSCIENCE ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 12:54 pm

amother wrote:

Barbara wrote:

Horace Mann is actually very generous in terms of financial aid for its students.

It also has tremendous educational opportunities and programs that -- unfortunately -- are not equaled in any Jewish day school of which I am aware.

Barbara - who need tremendous educational oppurtunites? Just look at the type of school JAWScience went to and she's in an MD PHD program.

I really hate when people use me as an example for not educating our children, because look I got no education and still managed to teach it all to myself. Our beautiful children have wonderful Jewish kops and to hold them back from using their talents to better this world is criminal. God has given you talents and you must nurture and use them to your full potential or you are in essence telling him that you know better.

I am the first to champion the need for better educational opportunities in Jewish schools. I am a very rare creature in terms of educational background and achievements made after having such a lackluster education. Most people from my school did not even go to college. With a little more educational opportunity they could have gotten good jobs that would enable them to pay their bills. However, without any opportunity most of them just went with the flow of what the school was teaching us and did not seek further education. Preferring to live off their parents, the community and whatever jobs they could get without any education.

When I told the menahel that I wanted to be a physician he told me to give it up because I would for sure go off the derech and marry a [gentile] because that is what happens to jewish girls who want to have non jewish careers. Luckily, I was never one to be bossed around by someone who had no logic to back up their claims. I wish I went to a different school. I would not send my kids to the school I went to. Do you know how hard it is to feel stupid because you don't know something that everyone else in your graduate program learned in sixth grade? Do you know how hard it is to get into to college when your school will not release your transcript to anywhere but Seminary and Touro? I do not condone lying, but I felt justified in lying to get my transcript out of my the clutches of my high school. I was not able to apply for several fellowships and career enhancing opportunities because they required a high school transcript and my school did not and does not support my choice to have a career. Forget opportunity - they actively hold you back.

I got into the program I am in because my parents were very encouraging and were careful to let me know their hashkafos and knew what the school was teaching me in order to counter it. I give them all the credit for where I ended up, that and the stubborn streak I inherited from them. Our schools need to provide something other than glorified baby sitting if they want us to pay 10k a year for the privilege of attending.

↑ Barbara ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 1:03 pm

I actually agree that as a community, we have to make tuition a priority. We must ensure that our kids are educated in a manner that gives them an opportunity to support themselves, including making tuition payments. We should not live in a fantasy world, believing that one parent working at a low-income job will be able to support a large family ... or that a community of such people can support a school.

But I don't think that's what's going on in most of the Jewish world. People are struggling because of the economy. Schools have been hurt as well (and Madoff really hurt a lot of MO schools). People *need* help.

We need to find a new way to finance our schools.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 1:39 pm

amother wrote:

Eventhough my husband and I work full time, it is really hard for me to imagine how we will be able to afford yeshivah. As much as I want to give my child a jewish education, I'm considering a newly opened hebrew language charter school. It is very sad that in my case I have to choose between paying for school and having more kids. Due to the tuition crisis something tells me that I'm not going to be the only frum parent sendting to PS.

if you do go that route send your kid there for the first few grades, then try and switch to a frum school later on. (save up meanwhile for tuition) it is much harder for a teenager to be in public school then a young kid. BTDT.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 2:29 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

DH and I aren't going to have 8 kids in large part because we can't afford it. Someone has to pay the bills.

Likewise, you might think that by working on Shabbos, you can increase your income. But it doesn't work that way. Hashem runs the world. You're taking Him out of the picture by taking personal responsibility and credit for everything you have in life.

Just as Hashem sends us children, He gives us what we need to provide for them. In my own case, after we already had several children in school, our tuition budget was maxed out. Our next child was getting old enough to start school, and I worried how we would come up with another tuition. Right before she started school, our income increased by the amount of her tuition. If I had trusted better, I needn't have worried.

Hashem knows what He's doing, the hard part is learning to really trust Him. There are many valid reasons to have fewer children, but saying you can't afford them is not one of them, especially when you and your husband are engineers. Just as you are willing to be moser nefesh (self sacrificing) to pay yeshiva tuition, you should likewise be moser nefesh to continue having children, and trust Hashem to provide for them. It says in Tehillim 127 that children are a gift form G-d. G-d wants to send you gifts, and you say no?

We are obligated to have children, and to provide our children with a Torah education. Sending them to a yeshiva to get that education is not required, so choosing to have fewer children in order to pay tuition isn't a valid argument. You mentioned homeschooling as an option. Have you considered homeschooling so you can have more children? Even if you hired tutors during the week to help teach them Torah, it would likely be cheaper than sending them all to yeshiva. Think about it.

BoomChickaPop ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 4:32 pm

farm wrote:

Quote:

Raise your hand if there is someone saw50st8 hasn't offended yet.

hand raised

I'm raising my hand to. I appreciate SAW's posts, I think it's shocking how many people are getting tuition breaks and are walking around with "wants" that they could do without. At least they should be quiet about it, the fact that they will openly say that they have a break and still have luxaries shows what a big problem we have on our hands. Obviously unemployment or having low income is something else, but if you have a bugaboo, regular cleaning help, a nice car, a hefty mortgage, then you should be prioritizing your expenses and tuition should be way up there in your priorities.

↑ Hashem_Yaazor ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 5:57 pm

HappyHome wrote:

farm wrote:

Quote:

Raise your hand if there is someone saw50st8 hasn't offended yet.

hand raised

Just for the sake of argument (if you don't know me, you should know I am extremely anti-wasting money and expensive things for name only) -- if that Bugaboo was a gift, the nice car was a parent's 2 year hand me down after the lease expired: what bearing does that have to do on how expenses are prioritized? You can't judge people's budgeting based on things. You have no idea where they came from. And the parents who might be happy to give a top of the line stroller for their precious little ainekel might not be willing to donate that $750 to the school.