Prioritizing Tuition (Split from School Closing)

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 1:51 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Where I live, anyone who would like a tuition break at the yeshiva has to fill out extensive paperwork with very detailed, personal questions. They ask your salary, how many cars you have, what kind, how many hours a week of cleaning help, how much all your health and housing costs are, clothing costs, average grocery bills- the works. Plus the name of a rav who can vouch for all that. It's a small enough community that they know the truth. And then it's up to the school to decide how much (if any) of a break the family will get.

Why don't all the schools do that?

My cousin is on the scholarship committee at a school nearby. The school has about 1000 students. That's like 500 families or so (many just go to the high school). They are volunteers who don't have much time to delve into every personal decision people make.

They have asked people to either go back to work (if the wife is a SAHM) and other things like that. They are also less generous with scholarships to people outside the local community vs those within the local community.

nylon ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 2:05 pm

It should be so easy to tell someone who's been a housewife for a decade to "go back to work".

This entire discussion is reminding me of a blog where the commenters were saying that parents who can't afford to pay full tuition don't deserve to send their children to expensive schools and should find cheaper, "no frills" schools. Only the children of the well off deserve a fancy education. If the cheap school is the wrong hashkafa--well, then, not our problem, is it?

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 2:21 pm

Eventhough my husband and I work full time, it is really hard for me to imagine how we will be able to afford yeshivah. As much as I want to give my child a jewish education, I'm considering a newly opened hebrew language charter school. It is very sad that in my case I have to choose between paying for school and having more kids. Due to the tuition crisis something tells me that I'm not going to be the only frum parent sendting to PS.

J ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 3:00 pm

nylon wrote:

I found the implication that the poor kids only belong in the cheap school (and, by extension, that poor/middle class families shouldn't be MO or send their kids to MO schools) to be disgusting, to say the least.

Can't agree more.
I am BT and I am MO. I have no frum relatives who would support us in any way (eg. we are always making shabbos and holidays ourselves, we have absolutely no connections in frum world). We live in Brooklyn and for various reasons moving OOT is not an option for us. So, as much as I would LOVE to send my kids to MO or BY yeshivos in Brooklyn, I can't afford full tuition. I understand that Chassidishe yeshivos in Boro Park might be cheaper than yeshivos in Brooklyn, but I don't see how it would help me. What if my kids simply do not belong in Chassidishe yeshiva? Honestly, I don't see why those yeshivos would want to accept us. I really admire and respect Chassidim, but what can I do if am not one of them? I don't think it's fair to apply to Chassidishe yeshiva ONLY because I can't afford MO one.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 3:09 pm

zipporah wrote:

Can't schools with similar but not totally incompatible hashkafot team up for things like secular studies? How far off could the different customs be as far as school subjects are related? Does every level need its own school?.

I agree with you, but it seems sometimes it doesn't work, and some communities prefer ending up with several schools, all deep in debts.
The place I'm thinking of is OOT, three schools: Chabad, charedi from local shittas, "Orthodox, opened to all Jews". They tried to have some kind of regroupment but it failed.

Some other places have just ONE school from everyone, secular (if they agree with the rules!) to ultra Orthodox(Litvish, Chabad, chassidish). The chol is fine, but the kodesh is sometimes a fight (about creationism, about Zionism, about CY, about midrashim, about Yom Hatsmaut...). The dress code too.

J: why not? if they accept you

JAWSCIENCE ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 3:13 pm

I do not have children right now, because I cannot afford them.

I just want to say that from my experience watching my parents struggle with this (in much better economic times) the blame is not all on the parents. The schools have done some of this to themselves.

My school was expensive. Students were taught to marry boys who live in kollel. They were also taught that to have a job in the non jewish world was very dangerous spiritually and people who have such jobs are really not going to get a good shidduch (I am not arguing the right/wrong nature of either of these statements. I am just saying what we were taught). We were also taught that birth control is wrong. (Not in so many words as nobody would even say the word Birth Control in that school it was considered such a terrible thing). When asked how we should support our large families without a working husband the menahalim told us to ask our parents for money. If our parents had no money we should get a job in a nice jewish yeshiva and trust that hashem would magically send down parnossah despite our lack of hishtadlus. I personally saw signs posted in the office of the school telling teachers their pay would not come for another three months.

So we have a glut of people seeking to have jobs in the yeshiva which drives tuition up, plus there is no way someone who is a yeshiva secretary can pay full tuition for her 8 kids. I'm sorry, but many yeshivas are building their own house of cards.

Why should tuition be 10K per child (especially when the education received is sub par).

You cannot home school when both parents are working to make ends meet.

Are there people abusing the scholarship system? yes and they should be ashamed of themselves.
Do I think people should not view scholarships as the lichatchila way of educating their children? yes.
Would it be nice if people who had kids on scholarships paid back the money one day so the school could build an endowment? yes.
Can you tell me not to have a child until I am 40 because it will take me that long (with 2 working parents) to build the 120K I am going to need for 12 years of exorbitant tuition for that child? no.

There are two sides to this story and BOTH need to stop pointing the finger at the other and start taking a good look at themselves.

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 3:15 pm

J wrote:

nylon wrote:

J, if there was an affordable option that was a little inconvenient, would you choose it? I'm talking about one with similiar hashkafa. That's what those bloggers were talking about.

As to mixing secular studies - that won't work for 100 reasons including:

1) Dress code (not necessarily sleeve length type things but "fashion" related - colors, haircuts, accesories)

2) Science - how exactly you teach it

3) Exposure to kids less frum - possible "bad" influences

In a place like Lakewood where the schools are close enough hashkafically, it may work. Other places, doubtful.

↑ Barbara ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 3:19 pm

chavamom wrote:

BTW - in response to your "tuition covers costs, but not building projects, etc" comment. By way of example, from a day school that costs $35K/year (you read that right)

Quote:

Will we be asked to contribute to Horace Mann?

Yes. The tuition costs do not cover the entire expense of educating students at HM. The Annual Fund is the school’s yearly campaign to raise funds in support of the daily operations budget. Contributions from trustees, parents, alumni, parents of alumni, grandparents, members of the faculty and staff, and other friends of the school help to close the gap that exists between tuition and the actual cost of a Horace Mann education. Each year we set a goal for the Annual Fund of 100% parent participation. While leadership gifts are important for the school’s economic strength, every gift does matter and every gift does make a difference. Strong financial support of the Annual Fund demonstrates the donor’s understanding and commitment to the school. Annual Fund gifts range in size from $5 to $50,000. We expect that each person will participate at a level appropriate for his or her circumstances.

Parents are also encouraged to donate their time to the School by participating in School and Parents' Association activities.

For more information about philanthropy at Horace Mann School, click here.

That's pretty typical. Kal vechomer.....

Horace Mann is actually very generous in terms of financial aid for its students.

It also has tremendous educational opportunities and programs that -- unfortunately -- are not equaled in any Jewish day school of which I am aware.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 3:24 pm

zipporah wrote:

My husband grew up in a European city where this was actually the way things were. The "yeshiva" merged with the "day school" for secular studies for a number of years. It worked out just fine.

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 3:29 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Saw,

Number 1 may be compromised on, or the kids would just be a bit different.
Number 2 is the same if it's a school under contract, if not compromises will have to be done. But if the schools are not under contract, they probably have a lot of common ground on this.

I think in the NY area it would never work. The schools that are hashkafically similiar and close together, maybe. But many schools are already large.

↑ MommyZ ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 3:29 pm

Barbara wrote:

MommyZ wrote:

chavamom wrote:

On a nurse and policeman's salary in NYC? Please get back to me after you've pulled that one off for 12 years x3.

Nope a nurse and a police Sgt. thank you very much Smile

. Not all police officers stay police officers forever. Some become detectives some become Sgt., Lt., Capt etc etc and move up the ranks increasing their salaries. Also in case you didn't know in NYC the base salary before shift differential and overtime for a cop is $75k after 5.5 years (this being the old contract and it will only go up when they sign a new contract if not stay the same) and nurses often earn $60k or more starting salary. Sgt.s earn even more. So yes I am hoping and planning to one day be able to afford full tuition for my three children.

We can't afford it yet but we're hoping to be able to and then continue to contribute to our school after they graduate since it is a Kehillah school and we are members of the Kehillah.

Our school is about $20,000 per year, per kid, for elementary, $32,000 for high school. Even a cheaper school is what, $10,000 per year per kid? Assuming a tax rate of 50%, you need to earn $60,000 per year to put 3 kids through even that cheaper yeshiva. Which is pretty close to what you list for your husband's salary.

That's why its a tuition crisis.

DH has not been a cop for 5.5 years yet and the tax rate is not yet 50%. G-d help us if it gets there. The only part of DH's salary that gets taxed at an outrageous rate is his overtime which really bugs the heck out of me. Elementary school here doesn't come close to $20,000 a year. I'm not sure about highschool yet since we don't have any in highschool at this time.

Like I said before DH is working very hard and should move up in rank within the next few years. That promotion comes with a significant pay raise. Base salary for a Sgt. before uniform allowance, night shift differential, holiday pay and overtime is close to 100k a year. He is planning to take the next Sgt. exam and is eligible for promotion in 2 1/2-3 years. By then I should be finished with my undergraduate degree and hopefully working. Yes it's hard to find jobs in this economy but even if it hasn't picked up yet I will try to use whatever connections I have to get a job. This is my goal. It might not work out but at least I have a plan for how it could possibly work out.

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 3:30 pm

J wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

J, if there was an affordable option that was a little inconvenient, would you choose it? I'm talking about one with similiar hashkafa. That's what those bloggers were talking about.

Depends on "a little inconvenient" part. If it's affordable (for me) and a little inconvenient (for me) I would take it in a heart beat. Unfortunately I haven't seen such options as of yet.

That's what the blog was talking about. JFS is a MO school in Staten Island. Commute is about 55-60 minutes away. Compare that to the local schools with a bus route of 30-50 minutes (based on where on the route you are).

BTW if you are in Brooklyn, its a school you should consider. They are affordable (I think for Brooklyn students its $5500?) and MO.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 3:33 pm

MommyZ wrote:

Like I said before DH is working very hard and should move up in rank within the next few years. That promotion comes with a significant pay raise. Base salary for a Sgt. before uniform allowance, night shift differential, holiday pay and overtime is close to 100k a year. He is planning to take the next Sgt. exam and is eligible for promotion in 2 1/2-3 years. By then I should be finished with my undergraduate degree and hopefully working. Yes it's hard to find jobs in this economy but even if it hasn't picked up yet I will try to use whatever connections I have to get a job. This is my goal. It might not work out but at least I have a plan for how it could possibly work out.

MommyZ, I wish you all the best and I really hope that everything works out as it was planned. However, I know somebody who was planning to take Sgt exam. Guess what? There was no Sgt exam. It was cancelled. Looks like there is not going to be Sgt exam this year either. Nobody knows when it's going to be given next time. Same thing with other exams. You can't control that.

↑ Barbara ↓

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 3:39 pm

Ruchel wrote:

I disagree.

I assume that math wouldn't be much of an issue. But, for example, our school teaches the kids about evolution, the Big Bang Theory, etc., and doesn't view them as contrary to the Torah. I am guessing that the local black-hat yeshiva would not want their kids hearing these science lessons. Nor would I want *my* kid in a science curriculum that did not include these things. Our language arts department assigns as in-school reading, or permits as outside readings, books that include discussions of drug use, teenage s-xuality, and include gay characters and some obscenity. Again, I wouldn't expect that more right-wing schools would want their kids to read those books. I wouldn't want my kid to miss out on great literature.

Moreover, there is a difference in emphasis on secular studies.