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↑ Barbara ↓

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 5:04 pm

amother wrote:

Barbara wrote:

OPINIONATED wrote:

I have friends across the spectrum of Judaism.

Chareidi schools will teach that certain things fall within the realm of Halacha.

Modern Orthodox schools often avoid certain topics because they don't want to offend the parent body.

When someone says she does something because she's MO, most likely it's because she was never taught otherwise.

That's why it's important to judge everyone favorably. I would never tell anyone not to do something if they do it. That's the job of the shul Rabbi.

Ah, yes. You judge everyone favorably. Particularly those poor, deluded Modern Orthodox. Their rabbis are afraid to tell them that they should really be -- well, just like you. Since your rabbis have the monopoly on doing things right.

It cannot POSSIBLY be that there is a difference of opinion. Nooooooooooooooooo. Not at all possible. After all, every rabbi in the Talmud agreed; must be the same now.

As someone who is very close to several rabbis of large MO shuls in large MO communities, I can attest to the fact that there are things they believe are forbidden that they do not speak against because they don't see the point and they need to pick their battles. It is something that these MO rabbis I know struggle with to some degree. I am not talking about things like wearing stockings or not, but other aspects of modest dress that are for the most part considered universal standards-- like mini skirts and shorts above the knee, extremely short sleeves, hair covering (yes, most MO rabbis believe that hair covering in some form is required), wearing a bathing suit in mixed company (ie, mixed swimming), and also other things such as social kissing.

Yes, I am aware that there are MO rabbis who permit many things that most people don't. But I don't think it's so far off to say that a significant percentage of MO people who are doing things outside the halachic norm are not doing so based on a psak or a haskama, rather because this is the way they have always done things, or the it's the way their parents did it, and they never asked otherwise, and nobody told them otherwise, not because the rabbanim are officially in agreement with the practices, but because to them it's a lost cause and they would lose capital in other areas where they can have more of an effect. (And no, I do not mean that they are afraid of losing money and their jobs.)

It always amazes me how so many anonymous women are close friends with Modern Orthodox rabbis, all of whom confess to these women that they basically mislead their congregants about what is acceptable. Give us a couple of names, so I can email them and ask them if you're telling the truth.

↑ MommyZ ↓

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 5:15 pm

baba wrote:

TzenaRena wrote:

Marion wrote:

Let's remember that chumra does NOT equal halacha, shall we?

Ah, but often enough, even if not always the case, that which is relegated to chumrah by those who wish to be more lenient, is actually halacha. And the lenient take on the halacha , which may sometimes be bedieved (valid only after the fact) to the utmost and not at all accepted by most poskim, is construed as mainstream opinion and anything more stringent called "chumrah"!

The bottom line though despite all our external, various levels of committment, essentially each and every one of us wants to approach G-d, and be connected, united with Him. From this angle, chumrah ceases to be "extra" or "frills". It takes it's rightful place as an expression of our desire to be as close to Hashem as possible, instead of measured, minimized, limited steps. And that, after all is the theme of Aseres Yemei Teshuva. "Dirshu Hashem b'himotzoi" "Seek out Hashem, when He is near."

by the way, the expression "hiddur mitzvah brings out the joy and beauty with which we fulfill a mitzvah beyond the minimum.
chumrah probably applies more to a negative mitzvah - lo saaseh, while the latter refers to positive mitzvos - aseh. regardless, chumrah, or hiddur, is simply an expression of our love for doing mitzvos, which is certainly a good, desirable thing.

What's measured, minimized or limited about doing what Hashem asks in stead of what you decided He will like better.
I'm sorry, but your post is just a nice wording of how MO is wrong and actually not as frum, good or Hashem loving as you are because they dont keep your chumrot.

↑ MommyZ ↓

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 5:20 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

Quote:

What's measured, minimized or limited about doing what Hashem asks ~~in stead of what you decided He will like better.~~

I actually wanted to respond to this instead of the bait. But first I want to know if anyone will even care to know. It's a good question, if you strip the cynicism.

Who is stripping cynicism? Clearly right wing Judaism has made a radical shift towards the right for whatever reason when there's a good reason to believe that adding on to the Torah is asur and makes a person (not necessarily you) a chossid shotah.

↑ chavamom ↓

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 5:43 pm

There are a lot of things where there is a halachic dispute - like stockings or milk that has not been supervised by a Jew in the production. If someone's understanding of the halacha is that "shok" includes the lower leg, then wearing stockings is not a "chumra", but how they understand the halacha. Ditto with chalav yisrael - if they don't hold of R. Moshe, then it's not a "chumra", but halacha. That certainly doesn't make them "adding to the torah" or a "chosid shoteh".

↑ bubby

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 5:44 pm

I just came in from work & I saw the subsequent threads. Prettyone, you TOTALLY mis-read what I wrote & I thank Baba for clarifying.

I did not bash YOU! I said quite clearly that I could see the way this thread was going & then YOU became nasty! That little crack about Yom Kippur was uncalled for, but it's OK, I get the defensiveness as much as I get your original thought (which I had said.)

As for being stupid...I might well be & you certainly aren't the first one to accuse me of that, but again...YOU lecture ME about "a meaningful Yom Kippur"??? Honey, I think you need to do some soul-searching.

↑ MommyZ ↓

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 5:58 pm

chavamom wrote:

Those were actually not things that I had in mind although dh specifically doesn't buy cholov yisroel because they play around with the dates which causes the milk to spoil faster and he believes that they have no chezkas kashrus. He believes that if they will play around with that who knows what else they play around with. I had in mind things like saying Brooklyn water is assur or long skirts are the reason frum women have cancer cv.

↑ chavamom ↓

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 6:04 pm

Again, Brooklyn water - not necessarily a chumra. (and really, we don't care why you don't drink chalav yisrael, just understand that there are people who hold that to be the straight halacha). Long skirts and cancer? That's nothing to do with chumra, that's just people talking shtus.

↑ MommyZ ↓

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 6:08 pm

chavamom wrote:

Actually it's from Rav Falk.

↑ chavamom ↓

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 6:11 pm

Like I said...

↑ chavamom ↓

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 6:13 pm

Honestly, when I voiced my complaint about Oz Vehadar to a rav, the reply I got was that it was a book written for a Gateshead community and probably should have never been published for the world at large.

↑ MommyZ ↓

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 6:21 pm

chavamom wrote:

Hmmmph very interesting.

Raisin ↓

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 6:23 pm

Not just Gateshead. Plenty of people in London or Manchester live and dress like that. (as do people in chasideeshe and more right wing yeshivishe communities in the US)

↑ chavamom ↓

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 6:25 pm

Raisin wrote:

Not just Gateshead. Plenty of people in London or Manchester live and dress like that. (as do people in chasideeshe and more right wing yeshivishe communities in the US)

I'm just reporting it as I heard it. But there are definitely *quite* a number of things in there that fall into the realm of "community norms" and aren't appropriate to be claiming that they should be considered halacha across the board.

↑ Yocheved84

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 7:43 pm

prettyone wrote:

Yocheved84 wrote:

I see this come up alot.

Someone has a minhag which seems completely extremist to me, and then they explain that the reason they do it that way is cause they are supposedly morally superior.

Well, I'm not an arch-conservative who looks down on others and I do the same thing or I'm MO but we dont do that.

what does one have to do with the other?

OP--The answer is nothing. Your post comes off as attacking the MO community, hence my obnoxious response. If everybody agreed on every religious or cultural practice, then Imamother wouldn't exist. I don't agree with many of the activities that go on in other sects, but I don't question it because I respect that different people have different practices. Different Rabbis and different sects hold different opinions--end of story.

Why is it that we're still in the High Holy Days and Imamother debates have been as rough as ever today?

your unbelievable. you are so intent on trying to show that im attacking MO that you decided to twist my words into something that I didnt say.

I cant even respond to you cause I didnt even understand your point.

The way you addressed your questions did not come across as one seeking general knowledge about what MO do. It came off as a pejorative line of questioning, hence my response.

sneakermom

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 8:12 pm

MO, not MO What's the difference?

We are all Jews. We all have an actual piece of Hashem in us. We are one. And that is what's important.

Differences in ideology? What's new about that?

The Lubavitcher Rebbe used to say let's focus on what we have in common as opposed to our differences. We stood at Har Sinia together, serve Hashem together on this earth and will greet Moshiach together with Hashem's help sooner than later!

So I think this thread is superfluous.

cookiecutter ↓

Tue, Sep 14 2010, 12:31 am

Having read the first two pages of this topic, it seems like most people oversimplify the differences between MO and more right wing factions. Its not only a chumra contest or even a halacha contest. It's a fundamental difference in understanding the role of Judaism. In right wing circles, you exist to the extent that you are perceived to be religious (or potentially religious). In modern orthodoxy, Judaism is incumbent on an already existing world filled with people whose existence is justified with or without even the binding aspects of tznius minutae. If you think about it in those terms, both sides make a little more sense.

↑ mirror ↓

Tue, Sep 14 2010, 12:42 am

cookiecutter wrote:

In modern orthodoxy, Judaism is incumbent on an already existing world filled with people whose existence is justified with or without even the binding aspects of tznius minutae.

This is where the fun begins.

When you start blurring the lines between "tradition" and "halacha", there are things that are halacha that get misconstrued as tradition, and vice versa. Tznius is only one part of this large domain.

I learned a lot when I was dating between my first and second marriages.

I will tell you this: The guy I dated somehow knows the Mikveh Lady in a certain upper class MO neighborhood. The Mikveh there is woefully underutilized. This is not to say that the situation applies to all MO communities, but the problem certainly exists in this particular one.

HindaRochel ↓

Tue, Sep 14 2010, 1:02 am

chavamom wrote:

I agree.
There are chumras and kulas, which are applicable to a group or subgroup of people. In each case they really don't reflect halacha, but are unique to the person(s) themselves, for specific situations (not wearing white during 7 nikkim for example).

There is interpretation of halacha. The halacha is X and thus it is neither kula nor chuma to follow along those guidelines set by one's Rav/community. I am not "less frum" because I don't wear stockings, I'm not obligated to wear stockings, and to embrace wearing them without a valid halachic reason IS equal to not wearing them when I should. I know this comes as a surprise to some, but we really aren't suppose to be making life harder on ourselves. According to Rebbeinu Tam, on meschit gitten, "Anyone who is machmir without reason is a simpleton" which is not simply a statement about mental acuity but a statement about understanding Halacha.

hannah95

Tue, Sep 14 2010, 1:05 am

OPINIONATED wrote:

I will tell you this: The guy I dated somehow knows the Mikveh Lady in a certain upper class MO neighborhood. The Mikveh there is woefully underutilized. This is not to say that the situation applies to all MO communities, but the problem certainly exists in this particular one.[/color]

And you feel OK spreading bad word on MO mikva habits upon something a guy you used to date might have heard ?

How is it relevant to the discussion? What is the point you are trying to make by stating this ? Except MO bashing, of course.

Please explain.

grace413

Tue, Sep 14 2010, 1:15 am

OPINIONATED wrote:

[I will tell you this: The guy I dated somehow knows the Mikveh Lady in a certain upper class MO neighborhood. The Mikveh there is woefully underutilized. This is not to say that the situation applies to all MO communities, but the problem certainly exists in this particular one.[/color]

In my mother's Young Israel not one woman goes to the mikvah. (It's located in a retirement community, nobody under 55 allowed).

The mikveh lady you mention needs to learn to be more discreet. I think that mentioning even the percentage of users is not tzanua. Maybe they are all on back to back BC pills and only have periods 3 or 4 times a year. Maybe the don't want to go to a mikvah where the mikvah lady talks too much and go elsewhere.

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