PSA- you want to send to a certain school? Follow the rules

↑ tzipp

Thu, Nov 05 2009, 9:46 pm

Lady Godiva wrote:

I'm waiting for the day that school rules will include ahavat yisrael. I hope that schools will enforce that rule too. I hope that it will bring less criticism and hatred among us Jews. I'm sure that God will be a lot happier with all of us then.

Yes, it would be nice if some of the rules would promote values, not just outer appearances. Still, schools need to have a standard- if I want to send my kid to a school that is supposed to follow a particular derech, it is not fair for parents to openly not go along with that derech. No one is perfect, and as adults, I don't believe in making parents sign contracts, or any type of checking up on them, BUT if it is clear that parents are contantly doing things that do not follow the schools values, the administration needs to politely ask the parents if they feel that they should stay in the school or find a better match. I know a school that does that, but not so nicely, it does need to be done carefully.

↑ marina ↓

Thu, Nov 05 2009, 10:05 pm

Quote:

Children will be very confused if they are getting different messages from school and home. We all have a balance of what we think is ok and what we don't, we should be sending our kids to a school that agrees, promote, or at the very least tolerates our values.

Really? Our kids are that dumb that they can't figure out that different places have different rules and parents and teachers are allowed to disagree? Wow.

So I guess... all those granola crunchy moms send their children to yeshivos where everyone is breastfed, unvaccinated and never exposed to the poisons of junkfood? Because, otherwise, I can't imagine how confused their children must be, what with all those toy dolls with their bottles and junky snacks the other kids bring to school.

So I guess... all parents value homework exactly as much as the school does and no one would ever complain to the teachers that "my daugher has too much homework and doesn't even help wash the dishes anymore," because that would, of course, be a mixed message that would totally confuse her.

So I guess no parent here would ever dare complain about what the school chooses to spend money on, or how much field trips or school supplies or teachers gifts cost? Because surely disagreeing with the school on these issues would just confuse our little darlings.

↑ amother ↓

Fri, Nov 06 2009, 12:53 am

Lady Godiva wrote:

what if one parent of the child is more religious than the other and pushes the other to send to a stricter school? Should the parent who is less strict change because of that?

This is me Crying

One day, my DH decided that the school we had chosen together, was not frum enough. He went against my wishes, after consulting his Rov. (Rov told him to go ahead and switch the children and his wife would "come around"!), and switched them to a school that is totally not my hashkafa.

I am not interested in their rules, and nothing would make me happier than having my children kicked out of that place cause their Mom doesn't dress according to the rules.
Alas, year after year, it hasn't happened.

The children themselves, abide by all rules.

Seraph ↓

Fri, Nov 06 2009, 2:18 am

chaylizi wrote:

I very proudly follow every rule the school has & my dd knows it too. but in my city there are 3 frum schools. the school where you can't own a tv, the school where you can own it but you can't watch it (BY) & the coed B'nei Akiva school. There is no more modern but separate school option. It is a big problem IMHO. The community school has to make all the parents happy- the yeshivish ones & the parents who feel caught because there are no better options & all the parents caught in between.

Sounds like how it was in my community. I went to the "you can own it but can't watch it" because the co-ed bnei akiva school was too modern for my family, but the bais yakov was too frum for my family and had bad ramifications because my parents did NOT follow the school rules. I think you need to chose the school that fits you best, and then follow those rules, so you're not giving mixed messages and causing your kids to get in trouble. one example was that my parents allowed us to wear pants, but it obviously wasnt allowed in the BY. One day my sister wore pants to the library, her teacher saw her, and then she got punished in school for wearing pants in the library... Don't do that to your kid. Follow the rules, or homeschool. But dont send your kids to a school and then not follow their rules and either get your kids to be ridiculed or punished for the less lax rules at home.

↑ Seraph ↓

Fri, Nov 06 2009, 2:42 am

marina wrote:

Quote:

The difference is, you send your kids to a Torah day school to teach them about torah, halacha, and mitzvos, and if you disagree on those fundamental concepts, you WILL confuse them- for how will they know which is the right way if the home disparages what the school teaches and the school disparages what the home teaches?
However, crunchy moms sending their kids to non crunchy schools- well, you're not learning in school about breasffeeding, vaxing, homebirthing, etc. If parents in the school and the administration do differently from home, its not on the front burner, because they're not learning these stuff at school. They're learning torah and mitzvos in school, not "uncrunchiness". And "uncrunchiness" going on is just a side point and not the main emphasis.

The crunchy equivalent to this tznius/religious observance situation would be sending a natural minded kid to a class about the virtues of refined foods, chemicals, highly medicalized births, anti-natural, etc.

↑ marina ↓

Fri, Nov 06 2009, 4:07 am

Quote:

However, crunchy moms sending their kids to non crunchy schools- well, you're not learning in school about breasffeeding, vaxing, homebirthing, etc. If parents in the school and the administration do differently from home, its not on the front burner, because they're not learning these stuff at school. They're learning torah and mitzvos in school, not "uncrunchiness". And "uncrunchiness" going on is just a side point and not the main emphasis.

The crunchy equivalent to this tznius/religious observance situation would be sending a natural minded kid to a class about the virtues of refined foods, chemicals, highly medicalized births, anti-natural, etc

Aren't we talking about stuff like whether the child has internet or TV at home and whether mommy wears a hot chanie sheitel and high heels and a slit? I can't imagine these topics are on "the front burner" in most elementary classrooms.

Yeah, a kid who has a tv at home might tell his friend that he likes a particular cartoon and his friend doesn't have a tv and feels out of sorts. This is comparable to a kid who tells his friend that he loves a particular candy bar and this other kid isn't allowed sugar, so he feels out of sorts.

We're not really talking about chassidishe families sending their kids to reform schools and vise-versa, as I understood it. It's more like schools who expect parents to live according to a particular set of rules and the parents cut corners a little.

So, in my kids' school, the kindergarteners are allowed to bring toys ONLY on show and tell day. But sometimes, my little girl begs and begs to bring a new clip/headband/etc. and I turn a blind eye and tell her that I don't really care, but she might get it taken away by the morah, so it's her choice. You can have a beef with that kind of behavior, if you want, but I doubt it will traumatize and confuse anyone.

shabbatiscoming

Fri, Nov 06 2009, 4:21 am

this always bothered me. I have a relative who sends their children to very very very shtark charedi schools. they have a computer in the house, NOT for work and the parents sometimes watch videos on the computer too. they even let their children watch on the computer too. I know that the school does not allow this, so why in the world are they sending them there? I will tell you why. its so that they will "fit in" with all of their charedi friends who most probably do the same thing, have a computer in the house at least.

I think that it is so wrong to send a child to a school and not abide by the rules. its not fair to lie about keepoing the rules and I very much agree with shalhevet that it is much worse for children to know that their parents are liying than to send them to a school that will ok all of the things that they want to do, but might not let you "fit in" as well as the other school.

↑ Seraph ↓

Fri, Nov 06 2009, 4:58 am

marina wrote:

Quote:

Tznius IS on the front burner in many of these elementary school classrooms. And about TV at home- you might not think that these issues have anything to do with your observance of yiddishkeit, but obviously the school DOES think tv/internet has to do with religious observance or they wouldn't make a rule forbidding it. These schools feel that these kid's neshamas are being harmed by being exposed to TV/internet, and you may not agree, but thats the school rules.
The schools are concerned about little shimmy telling moishy all about spiderman and bat man and educating him about certain "inappropriate topics" and teaching him bad language which he picked up from TV. Sure, that isnt what they're teaching in class, however, it goes more basic than that. You send your kids to a certain jewish school because you're asking the school to help take care of these neshamos, so the school makes certain rules to safeguard the neshamos of their charges as they see fit.

Quote:

Yeah, a kid who has a tv at home might tell his friend that he likes a particular cartoon and his friend doesn't have a tv and feels out of sorts. This is comparable to a kid who tells his friend that he loves a particular candy bar and this other kid isn't allowed sugar, so he feels out of sorts.

Its not about the kid feeling "out of sorts" because he has a tv, but rather, the kid's parents dont want their kids exposed to those ideas, like superheros, inappropriate topics, and bad language. The difference between candy bars and tv is that candy bars are related to health and tv is related to neshamos, but you arent sending your kids to that school for the school to ensure their health and nutrition (though that would be an added benefit), you're sending them there for the school to ensure the health of their neshamos...[/quote]

↑ shalhevet ↓

Fri, Nov 06 2009, 6:44 am

I think tznius is one of the parameters often used because it is both outwardly identifiable (unlike ahavas Yisroel or LH) and also because, as we can see from this thread, it is an area where people make heterim for themselves. Someone asked about kosher food - I hardly think someone will want to send their children to a very frum school and be sneaking off to eat cheeseburgers.

Seraph wrote:

Quote:

ITA.

Those attacking bans on TV/ internet/ computers etc need to see the other side. As a parent who doesn't expose my children to TV/ internet/ computer games/ Disney movies I don't want other children in the class exposed to them. Of course I am talking about a large community with many different schools, and I agree that in a small place with a single community school things are different. In my dds' BY we have to sign that we don't have a TV (and that they won't watch elsewhere), and in my sons' cheder that we don't have a computer, unless needed for business purposes without the children having access.

I choose to send my children to this kind of chinuch and I think it is unfair (and dishonest!) of parents who want to be 'al shnei hasi'ifim' (on both sides at once) - on one to have a shtark chareidi chinuch, but still expose their children to these kinds of things.

Many rabbonim have spoken about how even things like cartoons, nature movies, and innocent computer games spoil a child's ability/ concentration to learn. I know from inside (when I taught in the system) that in the Israeli MO community, many educators are beating 'al cheit' - boys in yeshivot tichoniot think gemorra is the most boring subject in the world - once you are used to flashing lights and music for every correct answer and glossy pictures, and being effortlessly entertained, you lose the ability to enjoy making an intellectual effort. Someone I know who works in a prestigious yeshiva tichonit told me how the 12th graders gleefully threw their gemorras into the air and onto the ground after finishing their Bagrut exams. So, yes, even "innocent" movies/ programs etc have an effect - that is without discussing things that are much worse.

Regarding the things Seraph mentioned - it can be enough one child in a class of 30 to have an effect on the class. You want to be free to expose your child to things the school doesn't allow? Find a different school.

↑ amother ↓

Fri, Nov 06 2009, 7:55 am

shalhevet wrote:

Those attacking bans on TV/ internet/ computers etc need to see the other side. As a parent who doesn't expose my children to TV/ internet/ computer games/ Disney movies I don't want other children in the class exposed to them. Of course I am talking about a large community with many different schools, and I agree that in a small place with a single community school things are different. In my dds' BY we have to sign that we don't have a TV (and that they won't watch elsewhere), and in my sons' cheder that we don't have a computer, unless needed for business purposes without the children having access.

I am the amother who was discussing my cousins' OOT school where they had to sign a TV agreement because of some frum people in the school pushing it that direction.

I just want to say I 100% agree with you about TV/computers etc. if you dont like the policy, pick another school. We send our DS to a very frum Yeshiva in NY, yeshivish by most standards, and they dont exactly encourage (at all! obviously!) internet at home, but they "know their clientele" and know that probably 75% of the heimish, balabatish parents who send to this particular school, are working and not in Kollel, and do have internet at home. and if we have internet at home (which we do need for school and work purposes, obviously, even if it just means checking your email, checking up on a stock, etc), we obviously are going to use it to go to imamother. vosizneias. ebay. amazon. arutzsheva. this blog or that one, whatever. they arent keeping their heads in the sand and realize that making people sign that would just be awkward and fake. But that is a main reason we picked this particular yeshiva, because they DO say it like it is, they are real and earnest, no shtick and no games.

But the point I was only trying to make was that yes, in E"Y (most communities, not some far out in the middle of nowhere moshav where there is one school), in NY (5 boroughs and also places like Long Island, Monsey etc), in Lakewood, Passaic and other NJ places, Miami, LA, Chicago, London, Paris - all those cities I mentioned, have multiple schools to choose from. so making a "absolutely no TV rule" is very fair.
But you go to a city like St. Louis, Minneapolis, Denver, San Diego, Atlanta, (and I might be wrong about some of these, just what I have heard), where yes, there is a frum population, yes there are schools and shuls and even restaurants. But there is litereally one school to choose from and no other option. Then it is really unfair for a school to say "we recently changed the rules, and no longer may you have a TV in your house if you want to send your kid here" and expect parents not to lie. after all, they are desperate and have no other choice. (no, getting rid of the TV isnt "the choice," because that is not where they are at!)

↑ marina

Fri, Nov 06 2009, 9:24 am

Quote:

All I'm saying is that kids are not going to be "confused" just because there is a different standard between school and home on this issue just like they aren't confused when there are different standards on other issues.

If you really think that one kid talking about spiderman is going to be metameh all the rest of the children and corrupt their souls, that's your perrogative as a parent. But frankly, I really don't see all that much difference between this and the mom who thinks any child who eats junkfood will be a bad influence.

Would you send your child to a school if the class had a kid whose family didn't keep CY/PY/KY? Won't that child, talking about what he ate at home, be a terrible influence?

Shimmysmom

Fri, Nov 06 2009, 9:40 am

marina wrote:

Quote:

I completely agree with this. as a parent you can not completely shelter your child- it is practically impossible to ensure that your child will never be exposed to something that you disagree with!
I think its a lot better to teach your child- this is the way WE do things, different people have different rules, than try to hide this fact from them.

gryp ↓

Fri, Nov 06 2009, 10:50 am

marina wrote:

Quote:

I don't know about other communities, but here, where the hashkafah is very clear about TV, and the school makes a rule about it which some parents ignore, the kids do become confused. What happens is that it is up to the teachers to educate properly despite the parents' opinion of what is okay.

Ex: Kid talking about what he watched last night on TV to the other classmates. The teacher intercepts the conversation and explains why we don't have a TV or watch TV. Now the child is stuck in the middle, or can choose a side- either the teacher's or the parent's. And he will have to continue choosing this way as he grows up.

Ex #2: The school rule is that the boys should have a "Chassidishe haircut," meaning no bangs or chup. The reason for this rule is that in our hashkafa, bangs interfere with Tefillin. Some parents think their son looks better with bangs. Again here, it is up to the teacher to educate the child properly, confusing him or making him choose sides.

I can't say I understand a parent who sends to a school with a very specific hashkafa and ignores parts of it. Do they expect their child to follow that hashkafa for the rest of his life? Do they just need to stick their kid somewhere convenient? Do they really think their child will end up just like themselves, choosing the exact same parts they've chosen?

To compare it to a crunchy lifestyle doesn't work, because the kids aren't getting lectured on shots and junkfood.

When there is one school and it's a community school, of course these types of rules are completely out of line.