Spoiled generation?

lamplighter

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 11:00 am

Everyone is getting lost in the details (the example) but I agree with OP. There is an excessive amount of materialism now.
The standard simcha, shabbos meal, guest accomodations, watches and bags for a high school girl, home renovations, so many must haves, all are way more extravagant than they ever were.
Anyone who says it's just the rich or it's not pervasive is living under a rock.

Bnei Berak 10

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 11:01 am

amother Blushpink wrote:

interesting.

im young married in kollel, I see what OP is saying.

bH there is a lot of wealth in frum communites (not everyone, but its there) and now their kids are getting married on a standard thats really not so normal.

the wives dont work, vacation like crazy, wear designer EVERYTHING, high end luxury everything - bec they are still being supported.
I know this is not across the board so dont screech at me Rolling Eyes

im saying this is a real phenomenon. and while some of this wealth can carry over and support the next generation a lot of it cant.. and I wonder for these poor young adults who will be left with unrealistic expectations and no life skills

If support is being discontinued the young couple will figure it out in one way or another. It's that simple.

amother

Aconite

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 11:09 am

watergirl wrote:

Yes, of course I do.

As I said in my post, I was NOT referring to tuition. I assume you read that. I mentioned food, and like I said, aside from meat, poultry, and CY cheese, no it's not more expensive. I've made very literally every single YT since 2001. It's costly. It's not astronomical. I live near many shuls and bought a house about 7 years ago. We paid under 200k and property taxes are low. How? Because it's not in the NY tri-state area and we bought what we could afford.

If "making YT" means red meat at every meal and lots of extras, then I can see how it would be astronomical. That's not what making YT means for us, never has.

But why are we leaving tuition out?

Ok but even if we are..

Food, kosher food is more expensive I don’t even mean shopping on the Jewish stores. Where I live milk is almost $5 a bottle. Imagine a family uses 3 bottles a week? That’s $15 a week just in milk, oh wait they should drink less milk? Since when is milk a luxury?
But why are you saying except for meat and poultry and chalav Yisroel? That’s a reality for many families. And I don’t mean meat all the time but chicken is a standard that’s not spoiled. Kosher cheese/ yogurt/ etc. it’s a very large expense.
Yes we also moved out of town, but even out of town now houses are not as cheap as they used to be, unless you want to live near no one frum. And then you are away from family presumably so you have to factor in travel costs for that.
Making yom tov means food for 4-8 fleishig meals (doesn’t have to be meat). That’s a lot of money. Matza, kosher for pesach food items which cannot be purchased without the okp hechsher. Sukkot, a sukkah, lulav esrog. Some sort of clothing for the kids (doesn’t have to be brand name and expensive). A way to keep kids busy during chol hamoed, again it doesn’t have to be $500 but even one trip at $15 a kid is a lot if you have a lot of kids.
What about summer camp? I gotta work so I’m shelling out over 5k for the summer so my kids have something to do.
Tell me what’s a luxury in the above?
Frum life is just insanely expensive.

amother

DarkKhaki

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 11:10 am

watergirl wrote:

This may be true in some parts of America but it is certainly not true of the vast majority of the country's frum Jews. I think you may be describing (from what I've seen here only) parts of Lakewood and Monsey, maybe parts of Brooklyn. This is not at all where I live now or anywhere else I've ever lived.

This. I live in NY & besides cleaning help (which my mom & grandparents also had, even before the holocaust) I don't see much of else of what op wrote. I'm sure it's common in some circles but I don't think it's the norm in many places.

mig100

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 11:17 am

amother Aconite wrote:

But why are we leaving tuition out?

Ok but even if we are..

Food, kosher food is more expensive I don’t even mean shopping on the Jewish stores. But why are you saying except for meat and poultry and chalav Yisroel? That’s a reality for many families. And I don’t mean meat all the time but chicken is a standard that’s not spoiled. Kosher cheese/ yogurt/ etc. it’s a very large expense.
Yes we also moved out of town, but even out of town now houses are not as cheap as they used to be, unless you want to live near no one frum. And then you are away from family presumably so you have to factor in travel costs for that.
Making yom tov means food for 4-8 fleishig meals (doesn’t have to be meat). That’s a lot of money. Matza, kosher for pesach food items which cannot be purchased without the okp hechsher. Sukkot, a sukkah, lulav esrog. Some sort of clothing for the kids (doesn’t have to be brand name and expensive). A way to keep kids busy during chol hamoed, again it doesn’t have to be $500 but even one trip at $15 a kid is a lot if you have a lot of kids.
What about summer camp? I gotta work so I’m shelling out over 5k for the summer so my kids have something to do.
Tell me what’s a luxury in the above?
Frum life is just insanely expensive.

I agree

erm

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 11:30 am

Every generation has their test and this is ours. We are living in a time where things that used to be luxuries are now standard. One example, a kiddush used to be chulent and kugel and if it was a fancy kiddush there was a choice of lukshon kugel and potato kugel. There were no meat boards, sushi platters, $200 bottles. Unfortunately, we are sliding down a slippery slope when we start increasing gashmius. It’s a temporary moment of happiness and it cause a tremendous amount of pressure to keep up. Even to all those who are saying that they don’t have it in their community, the standard level increases dramatically in recent years. I’m not even talking about private jets, exotic trips, $2k denim skirts.

amother

Amaranthus

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 11:31 am

erm wrote:

Is that a real thing? Surprised

mig100

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 11:35 am

amother Stone wrote:

I agree with this.

I think the main thing is that real estate has gone up like crazy, and it's not like a frum family can just move out to the middle of nowhere.

My parents bought their nice size house house about 30 years ago for under 200,000. It's now worth close to 2 million.

We bought a tiny house in the same area a few years ago for 1.4.

My mom did not work and had full time help. Hired Help in those days was also much much cheaper than it is now. We went to Florida every winter. Flights were dirt cheap and my grandparents had a condo there so was basically a free vacation. Once real estate went up, condo was sold...

I work and have 4 hours cleaning help a week. We do take small local vacations but my kids have never been on a plane.

I'm in my 30s and my friends are all in similar situations as me- we grew up with a lot more privilege.

Now- both spouses work, not too much money for extras, all struggling to pay off our huge mortgages, tuition etc. our kids are no way as spoiled as we were growing up.

So yeah, just the opposite of the OPs assumption.

I agree. just basics, mortgage on simple home, tuition - or much bigger percentage of income nowadays. for many people

amother

Aconite

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 11:44 am

erm wrote:

So what then are you talking about??

What are the “simple” standards that have gone up that even the simple must have?

scruffy

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 11:46 am

erm wrote:

Where I grew up, most kiddushes had those styrofoam cake trays and cookies from neighbors. The fancy people had kugel.

lamplighter

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 12:16 pm

amother Aconite wrote:

So what then are you talking about??

What are the “simple” standards that have gone up that even the simple must have?

I gave a bunch of examples. There were always wealthy people, the issue is the non wealthy standards are far from standard. Compare to 25 years ago these categories for the average frum family.
Kitchen renovations
Kiddushin
Simchos
Backpacks, watches, bags, coats
Mishloach Manos/costumes
Jewish magazine recipes and menus
Guest accomodations
Dates
Proposals
Vacations

amother

Aconite

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 12:19 pm

lamplighter wrote:

Ok so none of this applies to me or the people I know.
I don’t see these as standards at all.
What do you mean dates? Like shidduch dating or a date night? Shidduch dating I’m not up to there yet so I can’t comment on. But all the rest definitely not applicable here.

amother

Amaranthus

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 12:25 pm

amother Aconite wrote:

Are the kiddushim you go to serving cakes and potato kugel on white foam platters?
You don't know young couples going to Hawaii, Cancun, etc..

amother

Gold

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 12:50 pm

amother Mustard wrote:

I live in Israel, and none of that is part of our world here. Having I’m sure it’s part of somebody’s but I live in RBS which is pretty American and I don’t know anybody that lives life like this. Yes there are those that have a cleaning help but I don’t know anybody from my friends, or my daughter that has married friend that has had a night nurse. Yes we go out to eat with the family sometimes but it’s certainly not upscale and it’s not super often and I can afford those things. One of the biggest things I love about living in Israel is that there is no keeping up with anybody. Yes some people travel more than others.

My sils in rbs live like this
Maybe your circle of friends don't but some people live very high standards in Israel
(My in laws are Israeli not American)

mom37

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 12:51 pm

I agree with OP that indulgence for the sake of indulgence is not a good thing. Our goal is to serve Hashem in all of our ways. Many of the examples OP gave can definitely be used in service of Hashem. Cleaning help can make a women a much more relaxed and better mother; same with a baby nurse. A nice dinner out with your spouse can really be a nice boost to one’s shalom bayis. A person should be honest with themselves and ask if these indulgences are fitting with their proper avodas Hashem.

amother

Antiquewhite

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 12:59 pm

watergirl wrote:

You say that 7 years ago you bought your house for under $200k. How much would that house cost to buy now? Also, what how much lower is your interest rate than the current 7%?

amother

Aconite

Wed, Mar 27 2024, 1:00 pm

lamplighter wrote:

When I was a child (I’m almost 40 now) there were always the girls who had the nice backpacks/ coats etc every year. I don’t think that’s a new problem