encouraging children to develop their talents

sarahd

Wed, Jun 29 2005, 4:40 am

Okay, so what's your opinion on this? Should we encourage our children to develop their talents, or will that distract them from their learning or other more important pursuits? What will the effect be of not allowing a musical child, for instance, to study an instrument if s/he wants to? OTOH, what if he spends hours on the casio or flute that he should be spending learning?

Shlomo Hamelech says "Kabed es Hashem meihoncha" - Honor Hashem with your wealth - which Chazal in one approach explain as "meihoncha -meichoncha - mima shechonan lecho" - from that with which Hashem has graced you, I.e. your talents. Navos Hacarmeli became chayav misa because he refused to share his beautiful voice with other Jews at aliyas regel. So we can say that there is an obligation to develop the talents with which you born in order to bring pleasure to others and/or to serve Hashem. Still, there are lots of people who consider art, music and the like to be a waste of time.

Where do you stand?

Motek

Thu, Jun 30 2005, 12:56 pm

sarahd wrote:

Should we encourage our children to develop their talents, or will that distract them from their learning or other more important pursuits? What will the effect be of not allowing a musical child, for instance, to study an instrument if s/he wants to? OTOH, what if he spends hours on the casio or flute that he should be spending learning?

I hope it's okay to expand the discussion and questions to include - what about those who don't have particular talents, at least not that we know of, should we encourage children to take an array of classes like crafts, gymnastics, swimming, and what about promoting hobbies like stamp collecting and what about encouraging sports like baseball?

Is the answer different for boys - girls?

to answer sarahd's question first - I think that if a child displays a particular talent in music (or art), there are a number of ways to go about it.

on the simplest level, parents can provide music tapes (hopefully of good quality like niggunim) and the children can listen and enjoy and learn the niggunim, or if it's art, parents can provide pastels, paints etc.

that might be enough to satisfy the child and he/she might spend their free time listening or drawing

there might be a few children who need to go beyond that level, like the bio of a chasidic artist that I read, where it was obvious, even when he was a child, that painting was more than something to do when he came home from school. It was something that became his life's work.

for these few children (and I think it's only very few) - I think their talents need to be developed along the lines already posted - l'sheim shomayim

Motek

Thu, Jun 30 2005, 12:56 pm

now, what about the questions I raised -

I think it's different for boys than for girls (equality and feminism notwithstanding!). Boys have to see their primary occupation as Torah study. Whether or not they are at the top of the class, boys have to identify with Torah-study as the ikar (main thing). With that in mind, parents have to be very careful about promoting other activities, things which could distract their boys from their primary focus.

Yes, boys need an outlet, they need to relax and recharge, and we have to give them the opportunity to do so. But if a boy does 'gimmel' work in Gemara and is tops in baseball, where is he heading in life? Will he eventually make a daily shiur part of his adult life? How will he raise his sons? What will being a star athlete do for him later in life? And what about his self-image as a "poor learner" as a child and later as an adult?

another thing - sometimes kids unexpectedly take an interest in something and get very involved in it - maybe they got a box of magic tricks and they spend hours perfecting tricks

parents have to be on the lookout for this and think twice before buying a gift like that
it might be a great outlet, but it could also overtake the child's life until his goal in life is to be a great magician Confused

it's an individual thing and parents have to be on top of things and most importantly - talking to their kids about their values

as for girls - it's a whole other story - maybe we need a separate thread for girls' chinuch and what are the goals

carrot

Wed, Jul 06 2005, 12:32 pm

Motek wrote:

sarahd wrote:

I think that the effect of not letting a kid with a talent develop that talent could be as much as turning them off to the whole yiddishkeit, especially if the reason given is that they have to be learning or some other "religious" reason. a less dramatic possibility is a less happy, less confident, less actualized person - which is hard to quantify and identify when it happens but I think it happens a lot.

motek, how would you know when it is a kid who is like the chassidic artist that you read about? if you only give them tapes or pastels and expect them to be satisfied with that, while subtly putting down the idea of someone dedicating their life to something other than teaching or shlichus, and not letting them come into any contact with the non-jewish masters of art or music (which you didn't say but I assume) --- then that is a way of squashing them before their true passion can ever be discovered. the whole attitude of throwing them a few bones and hoping "that that will be enough to satisfy the child" shows them that you really don't value their talent, and it would be easier all around if they just forgot about it.

and, let's say you DO identify the kid who really should be dedicating her life to art - how exactly would you direct that passion in ways that are just l'sheim shamayim - would you encourage/allow/decourage them to go to art museums, concerts, etc.? come into contact with non-jewish artists/musicians?

because I hate to be the one to break the news... but if someone is really into music, they will not be satisfied with niggunim, and if someone is really into art, they will not be satisfied with the "chassidic artists" style alone. (and I don't think any kid who wants to play an instrument would be satisfied with LISTENING to tapes.)

also, and this is sort of a seperate topic, but I think true art in a way cannot exist with chassidus THE WAY IT IS COMMONLY TAUGHT. (I do think they can go together, but not with some of the common understandings of chassidus.) real art is experiential (the opposite of self-denying bitul), experimental (not concerned with right or wrong), and subjective (the opposite of objective truth.)

you still didn't answer whether we should encourage hobbies in general.

carrot

Wed, Jul 06 2005, 12:41 pm

Motek wrote:

Yes, boys need an outlet, they need to relax and recharge, and we have to give them the opportunity to do so. But if a boy does 'gimmel' work in Gemara and is tops in baseball, where is he heading in life? Will he eventually make a daily shiur part of his adult life? How will he raise his sons? What will being a star athlete do for him later in life? And what about his self-image as a "poor learner" as a child and later as an adult?

I think that if a boy is great in baseball and gemara is not his thing, and you take away his baseball, it is LESS likely that in the fututure he will make a daily shiur a part of his daily life. taking away the baseball will not make him learn better. he will still stay a "poor learner", but now without even being able to tell himself that he is good at anything at all, and it is likely he will hate the whole religion which he thinks squashed him. while being a star athlete will give him the self-confidence, even the self-discipline that will enable him to also conquer his learning. not to mention the release of energy. and joy in living.

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another thing - sometimes kids unexpectedly take an interest in something and get very involved in it - maybe they got a box of magic tricks and they spend hours perfecting tricks

parents have to be on the lookout for this and think twice before buying a gift like that
it might be a great outlet, but it could also overtake the child's life until his goal in life is to be a great magician Confused

kids are kids. it's called playing.

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it's an individual thing and parents have to be on top of things and most importantly - talking to their kids about their values

yes, that's true

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as for girls - it's a whole other story - maybe we need a separate thread for girls' chinuch and what are the goals

good question

adorable

Wed, Jul 06 2005, 2:14 pm

I think we would have less problems and at-risk kids in our community if we would help develop and promote children's talents.
I know so many kids in school that are not challenged enough and therefore they tend to make trouble.... and so on, like a vicious cycle.
kids who finish their homework within 1/2 hour or so definitely need something to get them going and helping them develop their talents, even if it is scrapbooking, stampcollecting etc..
Self- esteem wise, it can only do good.
try to get their talents involved in tear school (With their permissions of course) if a child knows how to write well or draw well maybe they can decorate a bulletin board, newsletter editor etc...
everyone is good at something, even in the most minute way. and even if a child does not "show" a talent in any way, there must be something she enjoys doing such as reading, drawing...

stem

Wed, Jul 06 2005, 2:22 pm

Some young boys do not have a passion for learning. Many times, it comes later on in life. If a parent tries to discourage any other outlet, the boy will become depressed and disillusioned because he'll have nothing that he cares strongly about. Every human being needs to have a reason to wake up in the mornig, something to excite them, look forward. For some kids it's learning, but for many it's collection stamps, sports, music, art etc.
I hold strongly that whatever a child seems to have strengths and talents, a parent should help them develop it. If a child is musical, and the parent refuses to get them piano lessons, they will grow up feeling like a part of them is missing, or undevelped.
And yes, I believe that if a boy is crazy into sports, a parent should NOT try and squash his feelings. He'll get over it when he gets older, or at least learn to set priorities with regard to learning vs. sports and he grows into a responsible adult.

Motek

Wed, Jul 06 2005, 6:00 pm

Carrot, since your first post box included a quote from me, I understand that to mean that your response does not stand on its own, but is in response to mine. If so, some of your comments make me wonder ...

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I think that the effect of not letting a kid with a talent develop that talent could be as much as turning them off to the whole yiddishkeit

possibly (did I suggest otherwise?)

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, especially if the reason given is that they have to be learning or some other "religious" reason.

chinuch is meant to be approached with sechel (brains), not stupidity ...

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I think it happens a lot.

I think that what happens a lot is that children don't find their place in the world of Torah.

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motek, how would you know when it is a kid who is like the chassidic artist that you read about?

a passion for something is more obvious than a passing or mild interest

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if you only give them tapes or pastels and expect them to be satisfied with that

who said anything about expecting them to be satisfied?

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, while subtly putting down the idea of someone dedicating their life to something other than teaching or shlichus

are all Jews supposed to dedicate their lives to G-d, each in their own way, or is that just for the elite few?

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then that is a way of squashing them before their true passion can ever be discovered.

sounds like therefore, one should make sure to provide children with all the possibilities: music lessons, art lessons, dance lessons, gymnastic lessons, karate lessons, many sports activities etc. because otherwise how would you know where their passion lies?

and how about exposing children to halacha, Tanach, the give and take of Gemara, the Aggadata of Gemara, dikduk, historia, sippurei tzaddikim, laining, shechita, and safrus and seeing where their true passion lies?

Motek

Wed, Jul 06 2005, 6:00 pm

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the whole attitude of throwing them a few bones and hoping "that that will be enough to satisfy the child" shows them that you really don't value their talent, and it would be easier all around if they just forgot about it.

pejorative twisting of what I wrote Mad

what's with you carrot? What

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and, let's say you DO identify the kid who really should be dedicating her life to art - how exactly would you direct that passion in ways that are just l'sheim shamayim - would you encourage/allow/decourage them to go to art museums, concerts, etc.? come into contact with non-jewish artists/musicians?

and you are implying that exposing children to the secular art world is a must

is it? prove it

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but if someone is really into music, they will not be satisfied with niggunim

speak for yourself

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if someone is really into art, they will not be satisfied with the "chassidic artists" style alone

more projection ...

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. (and I don't think any kid who wants to play an instrument would be satisfied with LISTENING to tapes.)

anybody say he would? Rolling Eyes

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real art is experiential (the opposite of self-denying bitul), experimental (not concerned with right or wrong), and subjective (the opposite of objective truth.)

interesting ... and where did you get the definition of "real art" from?

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you still didn't answer whether we should encourage hobbies in general.

my second post

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... without even being able to tell himself that he is good at anything at all, and it is likely he will hate the whole religion which he thinks squashed him ...

oh, so you're saying that better he should excel in baseball than nothing

why limit it to those two choices? Confused

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kids are kids. it's called playing.

and every part of our children's lives is part of their chinuch

roza

Wed, Jul 06 2005, 6:15 pm

this is about sport.

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Academic Performance and Physical Education

“Increased school time to health-related physical education does not have detrimental effects on students academic achievement.” (Sallis et al., 1999)

“Available data suggest that the rate of academic learning per unit of class time is enhanced in physically active students and lack of curricular time is not a valid reason for avoiding daily physical education.” (Shephard, date)

“Athletic participation . . . reduces the risk of dropping out of school . . . is associated with fewer incidences of smoking, drug use, unwanted pregnancy, delinquent behaviour, and dropping out of school.” (Kerr, 1996)

“Physical education classes do not harm academic performance.” www.thecommunityguide.org, 2003.

Students who had physical education five times per week outperformed the control group in academic coursework. (Sherman – Trudeau XXXX)

about other talents- I think if children do well in other areas, it will only have a positive effect on their Torah study.

carrot

Thu, Jul 07 2005, 12:53 pm

Motek wrote:

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I think that the effect of not letting a kid with a talent develop that talent could be as much as turning them off to the whole yiddishkeit

possibly (did I suggest otherwise?)

actually sorry I didn't make that clear, but that was my answer to the original question.

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, especially if the reason given is that they have to be learning or some other "religious" reason.

chinuch is meant to be approached with sechel (brains), not stupidity ...

I agree.

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I think it happens a lot.

I think that what happens a lot is that children don't find their place in the world of Torah.

right, and the effect is as I said. a person needs to find their place somewhere.

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motek, how would you know when it is a kid who is like the chassidic artist that you read about?

a passion for something is more obvious than a passing or mild interest

OK, but it's important to be alert to it. not wait for them to suffer terribly or rebel before it becomes obvious.

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if you only give them tapes or pastels and expect them to be satisfied with that

who said anything about expecting them to be satisfied?

I think you did. maybe I should have said "hope that they will be satisfied with that."

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, while subtly putting down the idea of someone dedicating their life to something other than teaching or shlichus

are all Jews supposed to dedicate their lives to G-d, each in their own way, or is that just for the elite few?

if it is possible to do it not through teaching or shlichus, then I don't see what you are disagreeing with there.

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then that is a way of squashing them before their true passion can ever be discovered.

no, there's a balance. a lesson or two if the parents can afford it is a nice thing. or encouraging them to play sports which can be free. and I don't mean a full roster of everything, and I don't mean forcing a kid who's not interested. but if a kid is interested, we don't have to wait for them to demonstrate that it's their life's passion before we encourage them follow their interest or curiousity.

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and how about exposing children to halacha, Tanach, the give and take of Gemara, the Aggadata of Gemara, dikduk, historia, sippurei tzaddikim, laining, shechita, and safrus and seeing where their true passion lies?

great idea. there are many children who would love to find out more about those areas. please remember, though, that they are in school the whole day - they might not need extra lessons for all of those.

carrot

Thu, Jul 07 2005, 1:39 pm

Motek wrote:

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pejorative twisting of what I wrote Mad

what's with you carrot? What

motek, I don't think that's a very sensitive or polite thing to say... I think you can articulate your argument better than that.

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and you are implying that exposing children to the secular art world is a must

is it? prove it

no, I actually wasn't saying or implying anything here. I was questioning you. how you would act if you had a child who was really passionate about art?

although I will say, there is probably a difference based on the age of the child. do you agree?

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but if someone is really into music, they will not be satisfied with niggunim

speak for yourself

actually, I never got to far with my music lessons (and no, they weren't niggunim, but that's not the point.) however I do have friends who are extremely musically gifted and they are not satisfied with just niggunim. I challenge you to find one person who is extremely musically gifted who IS satisfied with just niggunim. I know one girl who loved music. when she got married, her husband would only let her listen to niggunim. she found it very depressing.

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if someone is really into art, they will not be satisfied with the "chassidic artists" style alone

more projection ...

I don't think so. that could be the style that they choose to paint, but I doubt they would be uninterested in the work of other artists who create in different styles, or maybe the same style painting with different themes, not jewish.

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. (and I don't think any kid who wants to play an instrument would be satisfied with LISTENING to tapes.)

anybody say he would? Rolling Eyes

actually, I thought you implied that. but the eye rolling is making it hard for me to continue this conversation in a civilized way, without getting personal.

it would be nice and also good debating skills if you would please state what you want to say instead of making these little rhetorical questions.

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real art is experiential (the opposite of self-denying bitul), experimental (not concerned with right or wrong), and subjective (the opposite of objective truth.)

interesting ... and where did you get the definition of "real art" from?

maybe I'll continue this conversation somewhere else... but once again your snide tone makes me think probably not.

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you still didn't answer whether we should encourage hobbies in general.

my second post

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... without even being able to tell himself that he is good at anything at all, and it is likely he will hate the whole religion which he thinks squashed him ...

oh, so you're saying that better he should excel in baseball than nothing

definitely, yes.

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why limit it to those two choices? Confused

I'm not sure what your point is. my point is, the more choices the merrier.

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kids are kids. it's called playing.

and every part of our children's lives is part of their chinuch

yes motek, you're right, you're right, you're right!!!!! now please take what you are saying to the logical extreme and describe to me the ideal schedule for "a day in the life of" a three your old. a seven year old. an eleven year old. do they get to play at all? are they allowed to be silly, or illogical? are they allowed to engage in activities that contribute nothing of obvious substance to the world? or activities that we hope they will be no longer doing when they are grown up?

I always enjoy talking to you because you are knowledgeable and passionate, but I would enjoy it a lot more if we can stay on a more refined level of conversation. thanks.