Is there a way to prevent this?

Chayalle

Mon, Nov 27 2023, 10:44 pm

amother OP wrote:

One is a son and DIL, others is a SIL and BIL recently.
I have definitely had this over the years as well.
I enjoy the company of guests, I do not enjoy being treated like an all inclusive resort.
Staying in your room all shabbos while you expect others to care for your family or not lifting a finger or supervising your kids is not the kind of guests I want. These kinds of guests make me resentful. Hosting to me means providing space and meals for the purpose of spending time together. It's not a vacation.

I agree. But to me, meals includes the prep. I don't expect my guests to join me in that.

amother

Brown

Mon, Nov 27 2023, 10:45 pm

amother OP wrote:

So is the consensus that I cannot prevent these kinds of visits? Is there anything I can do or a boundary I can set in place to prevent this?

Of course you can.

For starters, don't invite back bad behavior.

Second, decide what the rules are for guests and tell them upfront so they can either agree and come and everyone is meeting expectations or they can decide the visit isn't worthwhile to them if it means having to be helpful and supervise their own kids and everyone will be better off for it anyhow.

WhatFor

Mon, Nov 27 2023, 10:53 pm

Op, you're conflating two things here. People should, of course, take care of their own children, clean up the messes they make, etc. That's an entirely different assumption of responsibility than helping the host in their regular hosting duties (preparing food, setting table, etc.)

Most normal people who aren't overwhelmed with kids or exhausted, etc, ask a host how they can help. But if someone is hosting, guests don't expect that the host is relying on their help to be able to host. It's simply not the norm, and yes, hosting is work, so a guest who feels exhausted or distracted might not ask and think their host is okay.

If the only way you can host is to get that help, I think there's a way you can be explicit about it when you invite. "I'd love to host you guys but I think hosting has become a lot for me unless I get help. Do you think you'd be able to help with x, y, z?" And be explicit about what you want help with instead of putting the onus on the guest to figure it out. I'm no Ms. Manners so I don't know if what I'm recommending is even "appropriate" to ask; some would probably say just don't host if you can't do it without help. But I think it's worthwhile to just be upfront with your limitations and let your guests know how they can be a part of making it possible. If they can't they can't. But at least you'll all be on the same page about expectations.

And of course, if they have kids they don't supervise, be up front with inviting them. "I'd love to have you guys, and I'm telling this to all guests so it's nothing personal, but I just don't have the energy to watch extra kids anymore. Can you please make sure that you're awake when your kids are awake so they don't wake us up? I really need my sleep in the morning." (Or whatever the issue is, you get the idea.)

amother

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 7:00 am

So honestly I think the not offering to help with setting or clearing the table or mixing the salad after it's dressed, that kind of thing, bothers me because they are sleeping all the time or chilling with coffee and not supervising their kids. I am fully capable of preparing the meal myself and have many guests just for the meal (who almost always ask to help) and I don't ask them to do anything. It's like maybe my brain is thinking - if you are making me watch your kids at least help me in the kitchen, not that I expect guests to help in the kitchen. I have a friend who sometimes comes with her family, lots of kids, often a baby with them and she sleeps in too but she is present the rest of the day and she offers to help all the time.

Another thing is that my husband and I don't sleep in, we supervise our kids who are awake. I know what my kids are capable of and one of use is always around. I also wish I could sleep in! I don't sleep in because I'm a parent. So the assumption is watch our kids too. The first hour is fine but when I've been helping with your kids and breaking apart fights and feeding them etc etc from 6:30-10:00, I get resentful. And then when they go back to sleep in the afternoon for another bunch of hours, I do feel like I'm being used.

My son joins her in the bedroom hence the issue of no one watching the kids.

I feel sad that I'm feeling this way. I used to love hosting sleep over guests, my kids love the company as do I. These past few experiences over the year has really burned me out I think.

spikta

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 7:10 am

I'd try requests before boundaries and dis inviting people. They probably don't realize they're being a burden because they come from a family with different norms and/or they're overwhelmed with young kids so they aren't as attuned to others.
For example, my BIL and SIL have no problem napping on shabbos afternoon, because that's what they do at home, and they leave the kids to fend for themselves. We rarely do that, so we ended up entertaining double the amount of kvetchy kids when we spent shabbos together. We were annoyed about it for a while, until we just asked them to please have at least one adult awake and responsible for their kids during the afternoon. Things get too crazy without them and it's just not fun for one person to handle alone. Problem solved.
I've requisitioned children and adults to help with table setting, dish washing, salad cutting, table clearing... I assume that people want to help and I'm giving them the chance to pitch in. No one wants to feel like a loafer. I usually phrase it as - who wants to cut salad and keep me company while I wash dishes? No one has ever said no.

Chayalle

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 8:46 am

OP, I think you need to have a conversation with your son about childcare arrangements in your home. Tell him clearly that this is too much for you.

I host my younger sister from time to time, and she and her husband split up the kid watching. Here and there I'll offer her if I'm up anyway (and I don't have little kids of my own to watch) to go back to sleep - I know she was up at night and those angels are still up early regardless, and BIL is at shul....
The big exception is post baby - at that point I KNOW when I'm hosting that I'll also offer more help with the kids - sis needs to rest and be off the hook, and BIL goes to shul, etc....sometimes I dose on the couch while watching them play. But they are pretty good kids, well, most of the time....

amother

RosePink

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 9:02 am

I was hosting family get togethers (Chanukah, Purim, parent’s birthday, anniversary and more). But the set up and clean up we’re taking a toll. My kids also needed me and serving everyone else my kids got last.

Before the next get together I spoke to all our siblings and explained that I can’t do it anymore without help. Someone now comes to help with the set up. Someone else offers a side dish. And they all help clean up after the meal or party so it’s not anymore just me or my husband. I still do the most clean up but it’s not all on me. It’s made a huge difference.

OP, speak to your son and definitely your sil and BIL. Watching their kids and helping clean up after themselves is something you can ask of them. It will lessen your workload and you won’t feel resentful.

amother

Sienna

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 10:28 am

amother DarkRed wrote:

Is it possible they don't expect you to look after their kids? I know we often spend a long time napping on shabbos and our kids are just fine playing by themselves. But we're in Israel so the homes are quite small and you can hear any fights etc.

I have a relative like that.
In their own house, the parents sleep late or nap and the kids make a big mess, fight a bit and act wild.
It's worth it to the parents because they can sleep.

They can do whatever they want in their own house
But it's not fair to me that I should have to be ok with 2-3 hours of mess, wildness, bickering and unlimited chips spilled on the floor so the parents can nap like always.
True, they're not expecting ME to watch their kids. They're just expecting me to go along with and then clean up after the level of destruction that they're typically used to.

That's not ok as a guest

amother

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 12:48 pm

amother Sienna wrote:

This!!!!!! Hit the nail on the head. If I've beer said something the response was always, oh you don't have to watch them. Seriously????? So then who's house are they destroying? Who's kids are they fighting with? Etc. Etc. Etc.

amother

DarkRed

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 12:55 pm

amother Sienna wrote:

I suppose it depends on the kids temperaments and the level of mess, definitely don't wake up to chips all over the floor 🤣

Also - I wouldn't advise this as a guest in a friend's home, but a parent's home is a little different. Sometimes parents want their married kids to come for shabbos, even if it's actually hard for the families to travel and be on best behavior and forgo naps...

amother

Bluebell

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 1:49 pm

amother OP wrote:

So is the consensus that I cannot prevent these kinds of visits? Is there anything I can do or a boundary I can set in place to prevent this?

Do you ever ask? If you have good conversations with your female guest, ask her something like

"Can you help me set the table, please?"
Or ask her to keep you company in the kitchen while you cut.

And the kids you can make it fun or very clear that "everybody takes five things and put in the bin before we play more"
or "let's clean up the blocks before you bring out another toy. Good job!"

I think that people respect your boundaries if you are respectful and clear.

OTOH when you expect or hope or hint at something you would like, you're giving them a way out. and setting yourself up for disappointment.

Also, everyone knows that different places have different rules. so you can always use that as an excuse if you don't want to force them/assk them/make them do something.

"In our house, the rule is that we clean up before the meal",
or "kids play in the room until the parents wake up." or whatever rule that's the most important for you.

amother

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 2:54 pm

I'm much better with setting boundaries with the kids. I tell them the rules in our house. It's the adults that I haven't been able to set firm boundaries with.
Honestly I don't want to be boundary setting or coordinating clean ups and rule enforcing all shabbos.
Like I said when I have said that I can't watch their kids I was told I don't need to watch them. They don't expect me to watch them. Ya so what do they expect is going on exactly?
I did ask for help bringing things to the table while we were setting up for the seuda and got the kids to help but the one adult that was there said: I'll get shloime (her son) to help and continued drinking her tea at the kitchen table. Said son is 4.
I'm just not sure if I'm expecting too much and should be more honest with myself about what hosting entails or if I need to start standing up for myself more.

amother

Bluebell

Wed, Nov 29 2023, 1:58 pm

Are these assumed family members of yours someone you can have an adult conversation with?

Can you say something like this next time they show interest in coming for shabbos?
'Hi, Esty, want to talk to you about something. I really enjoy spending time with you, I love to have you.
Because of (some excuse about yourself, pregnancy, long work days, waking up early everyday, on the run, whatever) it's getting really hard for me to have people over. When I invite people to my house, I assume that they will (whatever is your 3 biggest complaints) Examples:
1 clean up their toddlers food prints
2 help set the table/keep company while I do it
3 Wake up and take care of their young kids.
I love to have you as guests, it's just becoming too difficult for me to host now, because of (excuse).

And when they come, let everything else GO. Don't complain about other than the 3 things that you expect! And if they ask the toddler to clean up after themselves, then you tell the toddler nicely something like ''it looks like you need some help,(I'll) go call your mommy''.

But keep in mind that a lot of times when people are guests, they feel like they can let their guard down, and that they are on vacation. I for sure have made that mistake. I am trying to stop. It's very hard t be a parent all the time and to be responsible all the time. especially when you know that there's someone else with rules...

amother

Chicory

Wed, Nov 29 2023, 3:10 pm

From the view of a DIL who doesnt always help at the inlaws...

OP are your kids/teens also helping? do you give the feeling of I have everything under control its my kitchen, maybe without realising?

When I got married, DH was first son, 3rd child married, the first didnt live in the country. We went often for Shabbos meals as I was living in a different country to my parents.
Like a good guest I would get up between courses to help. It didnt take long for me to realise the only ones getting up to help was me and the son-in-law. 6 months later the next daughter got married and it was me and 2 sil getting up.
I very quickly stopped helping between courses. If all the teen and married children werent helping why should I??

Before meals I would feel very uncomfortable helping. doubt my Mil realises its what attitude she gives off, but she is very much its my kitchen vibe dont mess anything, do everything like this and like that. its very uncomfortable to cut a salad or put dips in a bowl whilst being micromanaged and handed the spoon and the bowl as you are trying to do it and being told no like this and like that. I feel she is spending all that time telling me and glancing at how im doing it she should just do it herself. again it doesnt help when her own kids are sitting around chatting or reading.
If she asks 'can someone set the table' etc, im more than happy to help, knowing she needs it.

Shabbos morning she would always be up early (doesnt have young kids) says I can sleep in so I would make the most of it. I once heard her say to fil I had to look after the kids this morning in a negative tone but I ignored it, if she doesnt want to do it anymore tell me... And last week she did, she invited us but said she had a tiring week so she cant promise to get up for the kids so I will need to get up to watch them and give them breakfast. So I got up, it was the same time as she got up but I knew she didnt want to have to watch them.
I only realised I didnt always clean up after my kids when someone said something in passing that its hard and annoying having to clean up after their neices and nephews, so now I make sure to keep on top of the toys, and tidy up if my kids dont even when mil says its ok you dont have to do it.
Alot of times if I had a hard or tiring week I would think, I wish we can go to mil to just have a little vacation, maybe thats how your dil & sil are taking it.

To sum it all up. OP if you dont say anything it will continue. be open with what your needs are, you dont have to say it out right and fight but hint it and let them know what you expect. Its up to them to decide if they still want to come if its not a vacation anymore.

amother

Violet

Wed, Nov 29 2023, 5:11 pm

I think there's a balance here.
When you invite make it clear, "we'd love to have you for Shabbos, just please make sure to keep an eye on your children and clean up after them. Looking forward to seeing you."

This way you set a clear expectation.
As a guest, it's very nice when they offer to help clean up, at the same time you did invite them into your home as a guest.
If I go all the time I get up and I help, but as you mentioned that your son and DIL come and don't partake in watching their children, it is possible that when they are invited they feel like you're giving them a chance to have a little bit of a break.

Make it clear with your son, or your daughter-in-law if you have that kind of relationship, but it doesn't seem like it, and say you love having them for Shabbos I you understand that they are tired, but you need them to watch their children.

It seems that this is One of your eldest, and therefore you have a bunch of littles and it's too much for you to watch them all.

Maybe it's different by her parents, when I go to my mother, I do typically get up with my baby but my mother is more than happy to watch my child for a little while so I can catch a little bit of a break, especially if I'm doing something else.

So for them they might not realize that you're not just open to being on bubby duty while they are there.