Satmar protest against Israel/Netanyahu's speech

PinkFridge

Fri, Mar 06 2015, 9:14 am

[quote="amother"]

amother wrote:

You picked the choice we all agree on lol. But I wasn't asking, just trying to put things in perspective.

I hate that we come across as haters. I personally am with you about the publishing articles etc. I'm here, talking to you...

And thank you for making it possible by finding a polite way of phrasing your words.

As for the men in my life, well, my immediate family didn't attend the protest because they were working (did I just shatter another stereotype? Twisted Evil

) but they are not opposed to it on principle. I'll leave it at that.

Oh and wait for someone to pipe up that you shouldn't be calling them chassidish protests.

For what it's worth, Netanyahu's speech in Congress (isn't that what this thread is about?) was indeed viewed negatively by many Americans, including many Jewish Americans, despite his eloquence. But that's neither here nor there because our reasons differ.

And as an American Jew, I had mixed feelings. But I would say many American Jews felt more positivity than negativity.

amother

Fri, Mar 06 2015, 9:25 am

[quote="amother"]

amother wrote:

You picked the choice we all agree on lol. But I wasn't asking, just trying to put things in perspective.

For what it's worth, Netanyahu's speech in Congress (isn't that what this thread is about?) was indeed viewed negatively by many Americans, including many Jewish Americans, despite his eloquence. But that's neither here nor there because our reasons differ.

Do you think that Esther and Mordechai didnt face opposition? That everyone especially Haman and his posse agreed with what they were doing or what they did? They did it anyway to at least attempt to save the lives of Jewish people. They had nothing to lose and everything to gain and it turned out well in their favor. I guess Netanyahu felt the same way and spoke to congress despite all the criticism and opposition. He had nothing to lose and everything to gain. Time will tell if it worked or not but at least he did something productive instead of just running away and turning his back on his people like the satmar rebbe did.

Heyaaa

Sat, Mar 07 2015, 2:30 pm

amother wrote:

I am not as stunningly ignorant on the subject as you think, and there's no reason to be offensive.

I actually believe it to be both an excuse and a cause, depending on the individual in question.

Even before your post I was thinking if I should go back and edit that it was the zionist movement even before the State's founding that caused tremendous harm, because I actually do know of some of the tragedies you listed, notably the Chevron Massacre.

None of your examples predate zionism, but then I decided it really doesn't matter. You are 100% right in saying that they hate us anyway, they would kill us anyway, with or without a state, because that's just the way it is and obviously the way Hashem wants it. It was the rebbe's assertion that it would have been less so if we wouldn't have agitated about Jewish control of the Land, though that is hard, or rather, impossible, to prove either way.

In any case, besides the question of whether it does or doesn't directly lead to antisemitism, it was the Rebbe's belief that the movement and the State are hisgaros beumos, and he lamented that the New Jew (as opposed to the meek golus yid) was relying on an army and State to protect himself and leaving God out of the picture. The takeover of our promised land was not supposed to be forceful and violent, and shouldn't happen without unanimous worldwide consent, which will come when Moshiach does.

You may not agree with everything, or even anything, but there's no need for personal attacks or biting negativity here, all right?

Again, I'm not proselytizing, lol. I'm just sharing with those who didn't know that there actually is some meaning behind what you think are senseless and infuriating protests, and what you believe to be a chilul Hashem is viewed differently by us, and I guess vice versa.

It's a good thing you clarified what our problem is. Bec this is very different than satmar who kisses Americas tuchus while throwing Israel under the bus.

amother

Sat, Mar 07 2015, 9:07 pm

Heyaaa wrote:

It's a good thing you clarified what our problem is. Bec this is very different than satmar who kisses Americas tuchus while throwing Israel under the bus.

I was going to ignore this along with other angry or derogatory posts, but I respect you too much to not at least reply.

So yes, the method available to the golus yid was always tefillah and shtadlanus, which is the less derogatory way of referring to what Satmar does here in the US. Milchama was not the appropriate choice in too many instances. Yes, the one recounted in the megillah was a notable exception, and I would need to clarify a few things before entering a debate on the subject.

Carry on...

amother

Sat, Mar 07 2015, 11:33 pm

amother wrote:

They did it with Hashem in front of their eyes and within them. They called out to all the Jews to fast and daven. They cried to Hashem to save them. They all did teshuvah. That's how they were saved.

Lhavdil Netanyahu, says we are powerless. How can he say that?? Where does Hashem come into the equation?? We need to daven and cry to Hashem and ask him to take us out of this bitter gulos. Only he CAN help and only he WILL help. He saved us from haman. He took us out of Egypt. And he saved our grandparents from the evil hands of hitler ymsh. And ONLY when we will rely on him and totally believe that he and only he can bring us back to our holy land will moshiach come. And let's pray for it to be today!!!

amother

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 12:13 am

dancingqueen wrote:

Amother, you explained why are you anti-Israel (except for why satmar people live in Israel) and though I disagree that's your right. But I still don't understand the need to for public protests.

What's shtadlanus and hisgaris beumos btw?

Just to clarify, the amother above this post was not the same as me, the (Psuedo?? Twisted Evil

) Satmar Psycho who keeps posting and replying (against my better judgement, I should add. Other amother, Wave

, it would be nice if we could be friends. Maybe we are IRL?...)

Shtadlanus is from the root hishtadlus, but refers specifically to interceding with the government on behalf of yidden. Any Jew who had been in a influential government position over the millenia and used their power to bring good for their fellow Jews was known as a shtadlan. Basically bringing help and salvation from a place of submission to authority rather than milchama. Here in the US democracy Satmar utilizes the power of civil protests, honoring politicians, and voting in blocs to accomplish similar aims.

Hisgaris beumos means "starting up" with the nations of the world, instigating them, so to speak. The rebbe explained (based on the gemarrah) that it was something yidden had sworn not to do until Moshiach's arrival, and taking the Land without unanimous worldwide approval constitutes a violation of that shvuah.

Maybe you knew that, my transliteration skills (especially with the chassidish pronounciation) are awful.

amother

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 12:20 am

Sorry, I didn't answer your questions.

Regarding living in Israel, the rebbe didn't forbid it, it's our Holy Land, after all, how could he? It certainly is difficult being Satmar and living there. Speaking the language too well is a sign of not being too shtark, paying taxes is painful, not voting in elections must be so strange - but they manage.

As far as the necessity for protests, the rebbe believed it was our chiyuv to be mocheh (there I go again with the transliteration!!). Why did so many other groups see the necessity for the protests against the draft proposals last year? Back when the government began intervening in the chinuch atzmai educational system many began to understand that the less we take from them, the less they are able to control our minds and hearts with their kefirahdig goals. I don't think many here disagree that the Israeli government is anti-Torah.

The Rebbe believed we have to keep reminding ourselves and world Jewry that this situation hurts. And "ven setit vei, shreit men". (When it hurts, you cry out in pain.)

ETA: and what next amother said. It's a declaration to the world, out there and in America, not to equate Jews with Zionism.

Think1st

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 3:19 am

Barbara wrote:

Why can't people protest without demonizing these days?

I remain opposed to Netanyahu speaking in Congress to criticize US policy. I think that a nuclear deal with Iran could be a good idea, depending on the constraints imposed and how much oversight there is. I don't think that anyone who disagrees with me -- including Netanyahu and Boehner -- are Amalek or Haman.

(I am irked by the reference to Netanyahu in certain articles and editorials as "Bibi." It shows a lack of respect for the position he holds.)

Where in his speech did he criticize US policy ?. Would a nuclear deal with the 3rd reich be a GOOD deal ? Do you mean oversight like in North Korea ?

amother

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 8:04 am

amother wrote:

Hisgaris beumos means "starting up" with the nations of the world, instigating them, so to speak. The rebbe explained (based on the gemarrah) that it was something yidden had sworn not to do until Moshiach's arrival, and taking the Land without unanimous worldwide approval constitutes a violation of that shvuah.

Maybe you knew that, my transliteration skills (especially with the chassidish pronounciation) are awful.

Like trying to annex 570 acres of land near Kiryas Joel, against the will of the locals? Why is it ok to agitate for that in the secular courts, and at the secular ballot box?

Imogen

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 8:20 am

amother wrote:

For the world to know that he is not representing all the Jews. And we are loyal citizens of America. And we pray for our government to be strong.
We have nothing with the state of Israel. All we want is peace and quiet.

We all want peace and quiet, and I salute the United States of America, Bibi does not represent me either, I do not agree with him at all. But disagreeing with a goverment does not mean villifying a whole country nor publicly defaming my Jewish brothers and sisters.

If you have " nothing with the state of Israel", stop Satmar bribing those residing in Israel not to vote, ask the Satmar rabbonim to stop interfering in Israeli religious life, to stop instigating riots against police during elections, to stop insulting other religious groups participating in the democracy of the State.

Go to the major hospitals in yerushalayim and see the number of Satmar having first class medical treatment from the anti Torah state they demonize. Satmar jews live in Israel, not only the USA

If you have nothing with the State of Israel, do not take. Simple

PinkFridge

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 8:48 am

I'm nowhere near Satmar, my chassidish blood is Polish. But I did have a visceral reaction; I heard kochi v'otzem yadi, and cringed at never again.
Then I took some time off to think and decided not to go there. Because I'm not sure if it's entirely fair. There was a fine editorial by Meir Solomon in the most recent weekend Hamodia. He's a long time oleh who said that he's not naïve enough to ignore the possibility of political posturing, but neither is he cynical enough to say that Netanyahu wasn't sincere and speaking up for his country. (IIRC this was the approach of David Horowitz of Ha'aretz, which says a lot.) And his going to the Kosel the night before his flight really put things in perspective.

So while there are understandable arguments about hisgarus ba'umos, now that it's over, he did well, kol hakavod, and as a sar his heart is beyad Hashem, and may he be zoche to have his name associated with good.

Heyaaa

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 9:08 am

PinkFridge wrote:

This is what he said

Quote:

Elie, your life and work inspires to give meaning to the words, "never again."

And I wish I could promise you, Elie, that the lessons of history have been learned. I can only urge the leaders of the world not to repeat the mistakes of the past.

Not to sacrifice the future for the present; not to ignore aggression in the hopes of gaining an illusory peace.

But I can guarantee you this, the days when the Jewish people remained passive in the face of genocidal enemies, those days are over.

We are no longer scattered among the nations, powerless to defend ourselves. We restored our sovereignty in our ancient home. And the soldiers who defend our home have boundless courage. For the first time in 100 generations, we, the Jewish people, can defend ourselves.

He didn't say he's guaranteeing that nothing will ever happen again. All he said is that we will defend ourselves.

There's a mitzva in the Torah that if someone is coming to kill you, you should kill him first! You are not supposed to be passive!

I don't see any kochi veotzem yadi by saying that these young soldiers have courage and I cannot fathom how someone could say that they are not defending the country.

Being passive means one thing, that you die. There is no navi saying that if we sit in the bais medrash then Hashem will save us. Therefore, we have to go back to the Torah which tells us what to do and there it says we should defend ourselves.

PinkFridge

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 12:25 pm

Heyaaa wrote:

Of course there should be an army. But the situation in E"Y in an independent state is not quite analogous to the Jews in Europe. There was some physical resistance, along with much heroic spiritual resistance.
Perhaps one can refer to the Jews of the rest of the world and what more they could have done...

I think that the best way to read this, and this doesn't stretch it at all, is that hishtadlus requires not letting ourselves get backed against the wall. But we must understand that our physical fighting, necessary hishtadlus as it is, is not what will win wars on its own, not without the spiritual fighting of tefilla and Torah. (And I think it's safe to say that soldiers know this too, even as they physically train, and I envy their zechuyos as they surely rack up spiritual zechuyos as well.)

Heyaaa

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 12:51 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Of course they know it's from Hashem. Afaik they mandate saying tefillas haderech before they go out.

Also I remember this summer there were campaigns where they were raising money so all the boys could have titzis.

And talk to any chiloni about God. 90% will tell you that they see God clearly on the battlefield. The only time you hear this kind of emunah is when you speak to someone with a sick relative.

It's easy to judge and say they walk around with kochi veotzem yadi, but a) they are willing to give up their life for other Jews so I think they're allowed to feel pride and b) anyone living in Israel knows Israel's survival is a miracle. There's a reason they say hallel on Yom hoaztmaut and/or Yom yerushalayim.

black sheep

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 1:26 pm

amother wrote:

So many things wrong with this post
1. Netanyahu never said we are powerless, he said we can and will defend ourselves, and that Israel will stand
2. In the story of Purim, the Jews defended themselves.
3. Whose grandparents were saved from hitler?