the "We don't know what causes the problem" myth

Motek ↓

Thu, Sep 06 2007, 9:32 pm

Quote:

Another common myth is that we don't know the cause of the problem. In fact, I believe that it is more accurate to say that we rather not know the cause of the problem.

This refusal to acknowledge an uncomfortable truth is reminiscent of the study commissioned a few years ago by the secular Jewish establishment to study the problem of assimilation. The study concluded that assimilation was a complex issue and that they had not been able to ascertain the specific causes of this problem and further study was necessary. This, in spite of the clear evidence, published in the same study, that the major factor combating assimilation was an Orthodox Jewish education. A writer in the secular journal Commentary chided the study for ignoring the uncomfortable truth they themselves uncovered.

The assumption [of the intermarriage task force] is that intermarriage is present in every Jewish family; that it appears at random; that all sectors of the community are equally vulnerable. Why are American Jewish leaders disposed to see all-pervading crisis when . the data they are drawing upon suggest a number of subpopulations behaving in different ways [with the Orthodox having a substantially smaller percentage of intermarriage]? [Because] distinguishing between core Jews and peripheral ones would imply that some Jews behave in a fashion that is "better" than others. Such judgmentalism goes against the neutrality-seeking culture. [so they] banned discussion about the most divisive - I.e., most important issues.19

A similar phenomenon can be observed when AIDS activists insist that "AIDS can happen to anyone," denying the obvious but uncomfortable reality that - in the vast majority of cases - there are limited and specific behaviors that bring about this disease. The well-known columnist, John Leo (2000), describes what happened when a (formally) liberal journalist challenged the notion that AIDS is just as much a threat to heterosexuals as it is to homosexuals, by quoting a researcher who said, "By and large, people who are responsible will not get AIDS." His statement was met with "outrage and denunciation" for casting doubt on liberal dogma.

When I hear a prominent therapist at a professional conference state that "we have no idea what causes adolescents to go off the derech," "it can happen in any family," etc, I ask the same question asked by the writer in Commentary. Why are we disposed to see all-pervading crisis when there is clear evidence - for those willing to see - that, in the vast majority of cases, it is faulty parenting that causes this tragedy? To paraphrase the AIDS researcher (and the mechanech from Benei Brak cited above); By and large, parents who act responsibly - by being sensitive and responsive to their children's emotional needs - will not suffer from rebellious children.

Another version of this myth is that there aren't any natural causes of this problem (e.g., "it can happen in the finest family, etc.). Rather the causes are spiritual and/or mystical in nature. To reinforce this view, Rabbi Matisyahu Salomon has been quoted as describing the current epidemic of rebellious youngsters as "a gezeira." This has been interpreted by some as suggesting that this tragedy can happen to anyone without natural reasons of cause and effect.

Recently, I had an opportunity to ask Rabbi Salomon about his statement. He explained that he did not mean that this tragedy strikes at random, without rhyme or reason. Rather, he meant that the conditions that bring about this problem - and he emphasized the quality of the parent-child relationship as a major factor - are the result of the geziera of golus. (The speech was given during the "nine days").

http://www.drsorotzkin.com/rol......html

southernbubby

Thu, Sep 06 2007, 10:46 pm

The quality of the parent child relationship may be something that is as hard to control as controlling the weather. Take the father who is stingy with money. He grew up with a stingy father and now he works hard to make the money and doesn't want to see it squandered. He loves his daughter and has no idea that he is making her so miserable by depriving her of the latest styles. He has a nature that he cannot so easily control. To give her the credit card and wish her a nice time at the mall is far and above beyond his capability. Finally, his wife says that they will lose the girl to the outside if he continues to be such an ogre because the daughter is ashamed of what she has to wear.
This is life for the girl. She can either accept her father and try to nicely persuade him to understand her needs or she can get angry and rebel. Then we can blame the father for a trait that he has that is generations old and that he cannot so easily expunge from himself. We can say that his controlling nature ruined his relationship with his child, causing her to deny that Hashem exists.

Imaonwheels

Sun, Oct 14 2007, 2:47 pm

Quote:

has no idea that he is making her so miserable by depriving her of the latest styles.

This is the kind of thing that can cause us to lose our kids, to c"v give them the idea that one should be miserable because they don't have the latest styles. We have to be a little less shallow. If you had said the father was so miserly that he wouldn't replace torn or out grown clothing or buy something new occasionally for Shabbos and YT that's different.

I learned with a rav who is highly successful not only helping in shalom bayis but also problems with teenagers. He refuses to see the teenager at all because he says the answer lies with the parents. His advise returned one of my children from a very bad place within 2 weeks. The principle I learned with him form the basis of how I deal with my students, mushpot and counseling. I also have seen a tremendous difference in my own kids and dh.

Kids going off is never caused by lack of material anything.

faigie ↓

Sun, Oct 14 2007, 3:24 pm

please share what he taught you!

amother ↓

Sun, Oct 14 2007, 3:34 pm

yes, please share what he taught. Or even better tell us who it is so other can learn from him too!!!

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Oct 14 2007, 4:02 pm

Quote:

By and large, parents who act responsibly - by being sensitive and responsive to their children's emotional needs - will not suffer from rebellious children.

Does he have the studies to back this up?? How does he define "sensitive"? "Responsive"? One person's responsive is another person's indulgent!!! And "by and large" is far from an absolute term!!

In the AIDS case, and the assimiliation case, there were studies and statistics to back up the hypothesis, unpopular though it may have been. I don't see anything here but his opinion.

Granted, his opinion may be more valuable than mine, but until I see (or at least hear about) the study upon which he bases these findings, I'm not buying it.

↑ Motek ↓

Sun, Oct 14 2007, 5:36 pm

amother wrote:

How does he define "sensitive"? "Responsive"?

If the CHILD feels his/her needs are being met!

Quote:

I don't see anything here but his opinion. Granted, his opinion may be more valuable than mine, but until I see (or at least hear about) the study upon which he bases these findings, I'm not buying it.

No doubt you say the same thing for those who say the problem is lack of self esteem or the school's fault or ... or .... because they don't back up their views either. Dr. Sorotzkin and imaonwheel's rav, to name two people, see this in their own work. If others see differently in their work and are successful in helping teenagers, let's hear about it!

↑ faigie ↓

Sun, Oct 14 2007, 5:44 pm

.........thinking.........
so the problem could then arise, if, lo alynu, there are issues beyond the control of the parents, and they simply can not met the kids needs......... say kid needs attention, and hes only a toddler, but the mother is sick.....
the damage gas already been done, how can it be when the kid is older?

↑ Motek ↓

Sun, Oct 14 2007, 5:49 pm

faigie wrote:

they simply can not met the kids needs......... say kid needs attention, and hes only a toddler, but the mother is sick.....

than that is a child at risk of later having problems (to use the term "at risk" properly) unless there is intervention on the part of caring people

↑ faigie

Sun, Oct 14 2007, 6:14 pm

gotcha............
but according to this therapist, how are parents supposed to meet the kids needs when hes gone ( or shes gone) wacko?

chavamom

Sun, Oct 14 2007, 7:49 pm

Hmm - and what about the kid who feels that "if he's not getting Abercrombie shirts [like the other kids in the neighborhood]" then his needs "aren't being met". To the kid it's real, but to most adults, it's a spoiled brat!

↑ Motek ↓

Mon, Oct 15 2007, 5:38 pm

chavamom wrote:

The parent ought to re-examine how they are conveying their values to their children. Perhaps they give their children mixed messages. Perhaps they live in the wrong neighborhood.

↑ Motek ↓

Thu, Feb 28 2008, 12:24 pm

mumoo wrote:

I saw a video presentation by a successful home for severe drug abusing teen boys. One of the Rabbonim interviewed (I have to load the whole thing again to find out his name) talked about what happens in some cases. It made such an impression on me. He explained it like this:

Real happiness comes from having a strong relationship. Alevai, one with Hashem, or between husband and wife; parent and child; very close friend. When a child starts to feel like there is a weakening in his relationship with his parents (even if it isn't true; that's his reality) he gets a "hole in his heart. "

He tries to fill it by doing something that creates 'pleasure.' Children don't know the difference between happiness and pleasure. So he listens to secular music, wears an item of clothing that makes him feel cool or her feel shtotty.

So the first thing a parent does when seeing this is get angry. Which not only doesn't close the 'hole' but makes it worse so the child seek out more activities that give pleasure which makes the parents (teachers) more angry.

I think this supports Dr. Sorotzkin's idea in the first post.

chaimsmom

Mon, Mar 03 2008, 10:35 am

faigie wrote:

.........thinking.........
so the problem could then arise, if, lo alynu, there are issues beyond the control of the parents, and they simply can not met the kids needs....

Exactly. My 13 year old desparately misses late father and no matter what I or anyone else do, we can't bring his father back.

gonewiththewind ↓

Mon, Mar 03 2008, 6:34 pm

To say it is all the parent's fault is a gross oversimplification, and untrue besides. I hope that no one who is going through this awful pain and heartbreaking and soul breaking experience, and is doing whatever possible to win her child back reads that. I have read Rabbi Horowitz's articles and heard him speak. He works extensively with this issue, and he highlights many causes, based on what these children themselves have told him, and based on his vast experience. AND IN NO WAY IS THE ONLY CAUSE THE PARENTS.
It is a confusing world, there are so many pits to fall in, and on the other hand when we restrict too much, some kids can't fit the mold and feel too stifled. There are no easy answers, and there is plenty of blame to go around, between friends, yeshivos, the street,......and yes the parents.
How would you explain a family I know with 14 children. 13 have a wonderful relationship with the parents and are happy and on track. And the 14th is off completely. Did the parents do something different?
I read an interesting editorial by Rabbi Grylack in which he said some people are suggesting moving away from just saying accept everything they do with unconditional love, as in some cases, knowing that whatever they do will be met with understanding and acceptance makes it easier for them to fall farther. Each case is different, and there is no one rule for every child.
I am so upset by this that I could write another few pages, but I have no time

↑ gonewiththewind

Mon, Mar 03 2008, 6:45 pm

Part of an article byRabbi Horowitz:

Each situation, taken separately, lends itself to a logical explanation. When viewing the broad picture, however, it becomes glaringly obvious that something is very, very wrong. About one child you’ll hear, “Of course he rebelled; look at how strict his parents are.” Yet regarding another young man in the same situation, you hear, “Growing up in such a permissive environment can only lead to trouble.”

“I begged his parents not to spoil him like that”; vs. “Are you surprised that he ran off to work? Look at how poor his family is!”
“Could you imagine the pressure he feels growing up with such an esteemed father?” vs. “Like father like son – he never had a role model at home. What do you expect?”
It is intellectually dishonest to dismiss this situation as anything other than what it is – a crisis in our chinuch world.

Searching For Causes

What, then, has changed so dramatically? For one thing, the moral level of the secular world at large has been in an unrestrained free fall for many years now. In the 14 years that I have been teaching eighth graders, the decadence they are exposed to has increased not incrementally, but exponentially. And its shows. Even those who do not have a television set at home cannot shield their children from the relentless barrage of decadence that permeates every face of secular society. But, despite our best efforts, we cannot completely shield our children from this onslaught.

Want we must address is a problem about which we can do a great deal to remediate. Throughout the past generation, we have been, Baruch Hashem, raising the expectation level of what our yeshiva system should produce as a final product. Yeshivos are not merely satisfied with graduating a group of young men who will attend a shiur and support the local yeshiva. Our goal is to graduate lay leaders who can give the shiurim, and yungeleit (kollel fellows) who have the ability to become the Roshei Hayeshiva. We as mechanchim (educators) are rightfully thrilled by this development. Our yeshiva-educated parent body demands it, and we eagerly do everything in our power to accede to their requests.

The Crescendo of Taunts

The harsh reality is that a substantial number of our children cannot keep up with these demands.

Fox ↓

Mon, Mar 03 2008, 7:03 pm

Thank you, Miriamf, for posting the comments by Rabbi Horowitz.

Attributing "kids at risk" to faulty parenting and/or faulty chinuch is a little like attributing slipping on the ice to the natural occurrence of precipitation when ground temperatures are consistently lower than the temperature at which water freezes . . . yada, yada yada. The science may be 100 percent true, but you're still going to have some significant bruises.

There is a an old saying that a liberal is "a conservative who's been arrested." I suspect the same is true when it comes to this issue. People are very free with their opinions until it happens to them.

↑ Motek ↓

Tue, Mar 04 2008, 11:27 am

So Dr. Sorotzkin disagrees with Rabbi Horowitz. That doesn't stop R' Horowitz from posting articles from Dr. Sorotzkin on his website. He is open to other perspectives and other professionals' experiences and doesn't deride them. Mumoo's quote also differs with R' Horowitz.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Mar 04 2008, 11:58 am

How do you explain one child of a large beautiful family, being involved with drugs and robbery? Confused

which we see too often.

Edited for rudeness. -Crayon210

↑ Motek ↓

Tue, Mar 04 2008, 12:35 pm

amother wrote:

How do you explain one child of a large beautiful family, being involved with drugs and robbery? Confused

which we see too often.

There is nobody here who can respond to that without knowing the family and the children well.

And keep in mind that Dr. Sorotzkin and the person mumoo quoted, actively work with and counsel people, so it's rather silly to call them theorists.

Edited to reflect early editing. -Crayon210