Keeping Shabbos | Imamother

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Keeping Shabbos

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amother

Navy ↓

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 12:04 pm

I'm FFB and I've been keeping Shabbos my whole life.
This Shabbos something upsetting happened that made me question everything I believe and do.
On shabbos I discovered that in my rush to get the plata (hot plate) up and ready for shabbos I forgot to turn off the fire...I was smelling the plata melting and was worried it's going to explode and cause a fire. All I needed to do was turn off the fire, and feel safe, it was that simple yet impossible because it's asur... When my husband came back from shul he said that halachically we're supposed to leave the house and let it burn down. (as long as it's no danger to neighbors)
That was beyond upsetting to me. All of a sudden keeping all these rules felt like insanity. I mean tell any non Jew this and they will think you're sick.
BH BH that I discovered the fire was left on and BH that I figured I can move the plata onto the counter while leaving the fire on.

But the whole thing was upsetting and really made me question keeping Shabbos and Judaism in general

I'm grateful for the miracle and that what could of been a terrible tragedy was prevented but I'm left with many questions in my head.

Sad

amother

Wheat

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 12:25 pm

I would have turned off the fire. Isn't it Pikachu nefesh?

Sadie

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 12:36 pm

If there is a chance that the house will catch fire you should turn off the fire. And there is no way that you can let your house burn down without it endangering the neighbors.

etky

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 1:07 pm

Do you or your neighbors have gas lines that could explode?
What about toxic fumes from burning plastic ?
Both could endanger your neighbors w/o the fire actually spreading to their homes.
In any case, how could you be absolutely sure that the fire wouldn't spread to other homes and endanger life?

grace413

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 2:40 pm

I've also heard this "you are supposed to let the house burn down." I can't imagine how I could do so without endangering other people's lives. (I live in an apartment building) In Israel even single family houses are quite close to each other and definitely have outdoor gas balloons. Furthermore if you let your house catch fire, somebody will wind up calling the firefighters and (assuming you are in Israel) this would cause even more chilul Shabbat than had you just put the fire out yourself - except it wouldn't have been chilul Shabbat on your part because of pikuach nefesh.

You found an acceptable solution. Other people in that situation might have found a child to turn off the fire, closed the gas source as opposed to switching off the actual fire. I would be surprised to find somebody not doing anything in this situation.

If there is even a hint of pikuach nefesh I'd do what needed to be done.

I'm sure people will disagree with me.

myself

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 3:07 pm

I think most people would have called a non-Jew to turn off the fire.

Ruchel

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 3:09 pm

BS. Sorry strong words, but bs.
I quote my husband's ruv, unless you are on a desert island with no neighbour in kilometers, no forrest that catches fire, no gas, nothing that could explode... YOU PUT IT OUT

sped

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 3:12 pm

I am listening to shiurim on hilchos Shabbos from a very reputable (Charedi, Litvish) rav and posek. He said that this halacha was applicable when ppl lived in stone houses, with plenty of space between them and not much danger to anyone's life. Nowadays, unless you live alone, in a remote area, away from anything that can catch fire and cause harm to others, it is not applicable. In fact, when he went through these halachos, he kept reminding us that this is not true nowadays.
IOW, your husband was technically right, but not in practice.

Beyla

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 4:00 pm

Something similar happened to me and I went out in the street to find someone to turn it off. No big deal.

amother

↑ Navy ↓

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 4:07 pm

myself wrote:

I think most people would have called a non-Jew to turn off the fire.

There are no non Jews in my area

kerida

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 5:05 pm

Been in similar position, I turned the fire off.

Butterfly07

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 8:51 pm

"let the house burn down" ????? Seriously?!
Your 'faith' is right on track!!! Along with your sanity Smile

pesek zman

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 9:03 pm

Why do you keep the hot plate on the stovetop? can't you put it on the countertop?

amother

Bisque ↓

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 9:07 pm

I saw a six family apartment building burn down because they wouldn't call on Shabbos. The people were only allowed to take what they needed that Shabbos out of their house.

I also was on a lower floor when a candles fell on the table and they poured water in a circle around the flame rather than douse the flame and call the department.

gold21

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 9:10 pm

Never heard of such a thing.

Definitely shut the fire and do not let the fire spread.

Stupidity is not Judaism. Don't worry. Don't let that shake your faith!

gp2.0 ↓

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 9:15 pm

I was in this situation. Electric outlet was melting. We immediately unplugged the air conditioner.

Human life comes first. Living in the city, especially in attached houses or apartment buildings, you can't take this kind of risk. You take care of it asap.

↑ gp2.0 ↓

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 9:30 pm

Also, the practical way this halacha is applied is basically only - let's say you went out for a meal with your entire family and you come back to see the house is on fire. You are 100% sure no one is in the house, and your nearest neighbors live 100 feet away and there is no danger of the fire spreading to them. In this case you are not allowed to enter the house to extinguish the fire. You can still tell a non-Jew "my house is on fire and I can't call 911!" and let him do the obvious and call the fire department. Meanwhile you can halachically enter the house to remove your possessions, and even ask your neighbors to enter the house and remove your possessions. (Although please, for the love of God, NEVER enter a burning building for a material object. Nothing is worth trading your life for.)

All poskim agree that this halacha does not apply if there is even the SLIGHTEST chance of pikuach nefesh. Pikuach nefesh trumps all, always has, always will. Therefore:

a) if anyone is in the house, the fire may be extinguished immediately. There is no shaila. IMMEDIATELY.
b) if there is no one in the house but there is even a remote possibility of pikuach nefesh, for example the fire spreading to a neighbor's house, it may be extinguished.

Seriously, if you're in doubt, call up a rav or dayan and ask. Or your DH can call one. He should really clarify his understanding of this halacha, which almost never applies practically because usually people discover a fire while they are IN the house, in which case pikuach nefesh.

Quote:

The above are classic examples of chossid shoteh, and also how being an am haaretz can hurt you in more ways than just spiritually.

ValleyMom

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 9:44 pm

Sounds like your husband was kidding around with you

amother

↑ Bisque ↓

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 10:01 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

Quote:

The above are classic examples of chossid shoteh, and also how being an am haaretz can hurt you in more ways than just spiritually.

This is imamother paskening. AYLOR! OP's husband was following a valid halachic opinion; albeit, one that I don't like.

You may not break shabbos to retrieve your possessions unless need it for that Shabbos. Again, AYLOR. This one makes more sense to me.

amother

Natural

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 10:08 pm

OMG! I was at a family simcha when a candle fell over on the wooden folding table and my idiot relative said the same thing! he poured water around the flame but not on it. THANK G-D for my cousin, she told him he was crazy and dumped the water on top and put it out. I was frozen, freaking out because my kids were sleeping upstairs. G-d I can't stand that man.

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