Keeping Shabbos | Imamother

↑ gp2.0 ↓

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 10:21 pm

amother wrote:

This is imamother paskening. AYLOR! OP's husband was following a valid halachic opinion; albeit, one that I don't like.

You may not break shabbos to retrieve your possessions unless need it for that Shabbos. Again, AYLOR. This one makes more sense to me.

Actually, you may not retrieve your possessions because you may not enter a burning building because it's endangering your life so the whole point is moot.

It is not a valid halachic opinion to let a fire burn if there are people in the house, especially young children or elderly. I also told OP to aylor and she will get the same answer. When people are in the house, if there is the slightest chance of pikuach nefesh, you extinguish the fire.

amother

↑ Bisque ↓

Sat, Jan 09 2016, 10:32 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

In your post before this one you said you can enter the house to retrieve your possessions or ask a neighbor to do it for you. Now you are saying you can't because it might endanger your life. You initiated the entire conversation about possessions, so I am confused as you are contradicting yourself.

Practically speaking I think it is idiotic to let houses burn on Shabbos, but this is how some hold. I was downstairs in an apartment with my children, and DH told me the fire was put out by pouring water around it. There were about twenty men in that apartment when the candle fell on the table. Believe me, I was not happy with that when I found out.

Your opinion is not fact. It is just one opinion and there are rebbes with big followings that don't agree with you.

amother

Olive

Sun, Jan 10 2016, 2:52 am

amother wrote:

Why would one such incident put such thoughts in your head about Shabbos. The Torah is the tree of life we just have to ask the halacha. Shabbos is supposed to be a day of joy and rest

I have a feeling there is more to this one accident, OP. Perhaps you have questions about Yidishkeit other than this specific incident? Perhaps you sulk about appearing at the second Shabbos seuda with no makeup on? Perhaps you have other struggles besides Shmiras Shabbos such as Nidda, head covering and more?

I am too FFB and recently questions such as above began touring my head. There is nothing wrong with going through a stage that calls for more Chizzuk, and good for you that you're reaching out to sort out the confusion.

amother

↑ Navy

Sun, Jan 10 2016, 4:48 am

amother wrote:

I think I never questioned anything because I was comfortable. All of a sudden my faith seemed like insanity so I wondered. To all those saying my husband is nuts for saying such a thing, please read hilchos shabbos. It's halacha mforeshes

m in Israel ↓

Sun, Jan 10 2016, 5:09 am

I'm not sure why people are finding this halacha so strange. The halacha simply is that while one MUST be mechalal Shabbos in a situation where it is necessary to save lives, one is not allowed to be mechalal Shabbos only in order to save your possessions. A fire is one example of this -- if there is a chance of danger to lives (which there almost always is, nowadays), then you may put the fire out. If it is only property that is at risk (a theoretical house without any people in it, in the middle of nowhere), then saving the house would not be enough of a reason to be mechallal Shabbos. (Even in that case, you can ask a non-Jew to put out the fire.)

OP, I'm not sure why it feels like "insanity" to you that we are supposed to be ready to give up all our possessions for the sake of shmiras hamitzvos. There are many stories throughout history where Jews gave up everything for the sake of the Torah, and I actually find the idea inspiring. I am sorry this is making you feel so down. Maybe you can try to pinpoint which part of this disturbed you.

↑ m in Israel

Sun, Jan 10 2016, 5:16 am

Just to add as far as some of the stories from other posters. It is certainly true that if one can put out the fire in an indirect way (WITHOUT ANY FURTHER RISK TO LIFE), than that is preferred. A single candle that has fallen on a tablecloth with lots of people around can often be put out by indirect methods (like the example of pouring water around it). As long as it is being carefully watched to make sure it doesn't get out of control, why does this bother so many people?

I remember when I was young a neighbor of ours once knocking on our door Friday night asking what to do (my father was a posek) since a candle fell out of the leichter. My father immediately ran over with him to see the situation. It turned out the candle had landed on a tray, so it was not imposing an immediate danger, but they were afraid it might spread. My father and our neighbor simply moved the tray into the bathtub and surrounded it with water, and stood and watched. After about 5 minutes the candle went out. What is wrong with that?

chanchy123

Sun, Jan 10 2016, 5:32 am

amother wrote:

It's a misunderstanding of halacha. It is quite clear from the mishna, that allowing a house to burn down rather than putting out the fire is in such a case, where there is no one in the house - and the house is in a home-stead situation where there is 0% of a chance that the fire would spread and go out of control.
Assuming you live in Israel - I cannot believe that you live on a homestead. Any fire that started in your kitchen that is left untouched would very likely burn down your house and go out of control and be a danger to your entire neighborhood, especially with the winds that were blowing Friday night.
Yes, perhaps it would be better to put out the flame bshinuy or using a child, but obviously just letting a fire burn out of control in your home in a modern town or city is not the halacha.

↑ gp2.0 ↓

Sun, Jan 10 2016, 9:23 am

amother wrote:

According to HALACHA you may retrieve your possessions and even ask neighbors to put on your clothes and take your pots and pans "if they find them necessary for Shabbos"

According to basic common sense and fire safety standards, never ever ever enter a burning building for your possessions.

According to Halacha you may not endanger your life therefore the Halacha about entering your home to retrieve your possessions probably never applies because entering a burning building would endanger your life, which is against Halacha, rendering the point moot.

I am telling you without a doubt that every one of those 20 men are either chossid shotim or am haaretzim. Every single one.

↑ gp2.0

Sun, Jan 10 2016, 9:45 am

I am using the term "am haaretzim" because likely these men were trying to "show off" their "knowledge" of a Halacha which DOES dictate that a fire should be put out by pouring water around it HOWEVER if they had a better grasp of Halacha they would know that this Halacha applies only in very very specific circumstances - only able bodied adults are in the home and the fire can't endanger neighbors or other people. For example even if you don't have neighbors but you do have passersby on the street there is a danger your gas tank would explode and injure them.

I'm telling you if they had a better grasp of Halacha they'd know the very specific circumstances where this Halacha of pouring water in a circle applies and they would have known that in a multi family building full of children it is 100% ASSUR not to extinguish the fire immediately. Essentially by pouring a circle around the fire to extinguish it they broke Halacha and if they were more knowledgeable they would have known this.

Yes I know people like this exist (the guy who flagged down a truck driver to deliver his baby on the side of the road comes to mind) but that doesn't mean they are right. It means they aren't right but they either don't know they aren't right or they refuse to admit it.

amother

↑ Bisque

Sun, Jan 10 2016, 11:25 am

gp2.0 wrote:

The other alternative which you refuse to admit is they are following a valid halachic opinion. They are right as far as they believe. Amothers should not denigrate those who hold different than themselves. I did not hear anyone at all in the community say they were wrong the next day.

The same Shabbos the candle fell on the table was the same Shabbos the six family house burned down. Those families who knew it was inevitable their house was going to burn did not retrieve anything except for what they needed for that Shabbos even while it was safe to do so like while they were existing the house. Imagine the faith it took not to grab documents, pictures, etc.

I am sure there was community pressure, and perhaps they would have relaxed their understanding if they were more isolated.

amother

Blonde

Sun, Jan 10 2016, 12:25 pm

I really think your dh has the halacha wrong. in case there is a chance for pekuach nefesh you are alllowed to be mechallel shabos. I know this for sure. please realize that the torah is "vechai bahem" dont allow the yetzer hara make you think otherwise. call a rav and explain what happened. dont just vent. please check it out. your dh made a mistake. please for your sake and your dh. thanks and dont go the route of not beleiving, bec of this. pleas put this in perspective. and tell your dh that you really dont mean to hurt him but you felt that you needed to ask again to make sure.

Imogen

Sun, Jan 10 2016, 2:11 pm

The detailed discussions here unnerve me. If there is no risk to human life, so be it , but if there is 0.05% chance, just do not take that risk at all. its easy in the haste to evacuate a building to forget a sleeping child, someone in the bathroom or an elderly neighbour in a flat above. The number of injuries each Shabbat due to unsafe candles is legendary, just as there are a number of scalded children each month too, innocent victims that have had boiling water from unsafe or unsupervised urns scar them for life.

I recall family members in their junior dr phases weeping as they returned home on Sunday evenings having seen child victims of preventable burns on shabbat. I am sorry, a dangerous flame is not the time to debate halacha, we are Jews and pikuach nefesh takes precedent each time.