Why do you do mitzvos?

↑ Lechatchila Ariber ↓

Thu, May 10 2007, 12:28 am

what mitzvos do you believe you actually fullfill for those reasons?
For example I go to my shiur and we were learning a sicha which discusses doing mitzvos
not for the schar
not for purifying our neshomas,
not for any reason other then because thats what hashem wants us to do, and I'm sitting there thinking..."yeah right! I'm at this shiur for all those reasons, I'm here because of what I want it to do for my soul and for my lifestlye, I'm here because I'm hoping that if I make the effort to infuse my life with torah and chassidus that little much extra then I'll get some feedback from Hashem. No where in that calculation is what Hashem wants from me"
embarrassed

↑ mimivan

Thu, May 10 2007, 12:49 am

Hashem wants us to be connected to Him. And more than that, he wants us to want to be connected to Him. But even if one doesn't feel inspired, or if the yetzer hara gets in the way of the kavanah and we do it anyway, the connection (although imperfect) is still there.

Hashem was and is complete, and yet created the world. What does He need from us except that we should be connected to Him, learn his Torah and do His mitzvos?

On the subject of Kavanah, I remember there was a play written by Elie Weisel. In the play, a group of Holocaust survivors put G-d on trial for the Holocaust. They decide He is guilty and while they are getting ready to pass their sentence, one man says, "Wait! It's time to daven mincha." And they daven mincha.

Whether the correct kavanah is there or not, the essential thing is the deed.

red sea

Thu, May 10 2007, 8:38 am

EstiS wrote:

why do you ....

go to shiurim?
do chessed for other people?
bake challah for shabbos?
etc

mitzvos - cuz Hashem commanded me to & s/t I want to

shiurim- when I go it is to learn more bout the mitzvos

chesed- cuz s/o needs it & I can help, right place right time, s/t I wat to & s/t only for the sake of fulfilling the mitzvah

bake challah- cuz its healthier than the bakery & I try to do the mitzvah of v'nishmartem & obviously I have selfish reasons too to want to take care of my body

Quote:

why should we be doing mitzvos?

cuz we were commanded to & we beleive in Hashem, I hopethats a good answer

EstiS- are you going to tell us the right answer or is this just s/t to think about?

chen ↓

Thu, May 10 2007, 11:04 am

Bottom line--because I was brought up to believe that hashem commanded us to. It's the only reason I need, and the only reason that is unarguable against. B/c I get personal satisfaction out of it? Then if I don't get such satisfaction, why should I do it? B/c it's "the right thing to do"? according to whom? and if I feel it's not necessarily the right thing to do, why should I do it?. B/c I'll get rewarded? Then if I'm willing to forego the reward, why should I do it?

And if one does not believe that hashem commanded us to do the mitzvos, but chooses to do so anyway for other reasons--is that person really doing mitzvos? I think not. Nice things, good things, interesting things, yes-- but that person is not "keeping the commandments" any more than I am "obeying the law" if I drive at the speed limit because at higher speeds I can't hear the car radio or enjoy the scenery, or because my jalopy will fall apart if I go any faster. I do, however, get credit for obeying because the practical result is that I am obeying, regardless of what my motivation is.

Last edited by chen on Thu, May 10 2007, 11:19 am; edited 1 time in total

SZ mother

Thu, May 10 2007, 11:12 am

Ruchel wrote:

Some because I like them, some because they give benefits, some because I have to.

it's true, that is the way I feel too.
The main thing because Hashem wants it, but it doesn't mean I love doing them all.... I do because that is the way it should be
But that is the whole issue. work on ourselfs to be a better person, a better jew!

↑ Lechatchila Ariber ↓

Thu, May 10 2007, 8:47 pm

Quote:

And if one does not believe that hashem commanded us to do the mitzvos, but chooses to do so anyway for other reasons--is that person really doing mitzvos?

no the issue isn't about people who are moral without believing in hashems torah.

this is about us regular frum women. We know hashem told us to do it, and we know thats the reason we should be doing it, but in general, is that why we do it?
sometimes yes sometimes no.
as I wrote about my shiurim above and as I wrote to someone in PM:

Quote:

when I do a chessed for someone, I do it because
* my heart goes out to that person, I feel bad for them
* because I know its the right thing to do and even though that in itself is doing what hashem wants me to do, deep down I can't deny I'm hoping I'll get a schar for it....

and as I told that poster I know its a high level and as minivan said, it doesn't mean to say that we didn't do the mitzva as a result, but what I find it difficult to grasp is how can I even begin to have the right intention if I already have different intentions. I can't just get rid of those feelings.

I suppose it boils down to working on ahavas hashem and yiras hashem so that one can be working towards it at least.

↑ chen

Thu, May 10 2007, 10:49 pm

EstiS wrote:

what I find it difficult to grasp is how can I even begin to have the right intention if I already have different intentions. I can't just get rid of those feelings.

They are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I drink milk b/c it's nutritious, but I also happen to like it. If I didn't like it, I would still drink it b/c it's good for me.. If it weren't nutritious but I liked it----sometimes I would drink it and sometimes I wouldn't. Mitzvos are no different. Some we would do anyway even if we were not commanded. Some we wouldn't. Some mitzvos are "human-logical", IOW society would figure them out even in the absence of a deity b/c they assure the wellbeing of the society. Knowing this does not negate your credit if you are also thinking that you have to do this b/c hashem commanded you.

Just because a woman is religiously observant does not necessarily mean that she believes that Hashem commanded us to do the mitzvos.She may be used to this way of life and be afraid or unwilling to leave it; she may not be quite convinced that this is what hashem wants us to do but be unwilling to risk transgressing "just in case"; she may like frum society in general and not want to jeopardize her acceptance in frum society by going off; she may not want to hurt her family's feelings, esp. parents/grands/spouse; she may feel that the frum way of life is a better way (healthier, saner, more secure, safer, whatever) whether hashem commanded us or not.

mushmom

Thu, May 10 2007, 10:56 pm

[quote]On the subject of Kavanah, I remember there was a play written by Elie Weisel. In the play, a group of Holocaust survivors put G-d on trial for the Holocaust. They decide He is guilty and while they are getting ready to pass their sentence, one man says, "Wait! It's time to daven mincha." And they daven mincha.[/quote]

I love this story. So beautiful. Love Elie Weisel altogether.

I think being frum is a pkg. the question isnt why you are doing one specific mitzvah or another; theyre all part of the general pkg of being frum. its like asking why you get up to make a copy at work-- bc its your job, obviously.
why are we frum? ah.... thats a whole other discussion.

↑ Lechatchila Ariber ↓

Thu, May 10 2007, 11:07 pm

chen wrote:

EstiS wrote:

what I find it difficult to grasp is how can I even begin to have the right intention if I already have different intentions. I can't just get rid of those feelings.

I get what you are saying but if I were to take away my motivations mentioned, I probably wouldn't go to the shiur.

Quote:

Just because a woman is religiously observant does not necessarily mean that she believes that Hashem commanded us to do the mitzvos.She may be used to this way of life and be afraid or unwilling to leave it; she may not be quite convinced that this is what hashem wants us to do but be unwilling to risk transgressing "just in case"; she may like frum society in general and not want to jeopardize her acceptance in frum society by going off; she may not want to hurt her family's feelings, esp. parents/grands/spouse; she may feel that the frum way of life is a better way (healthier, saner, more secure, safer, whatever) whether hashem commanded us or not.

this is a different topic entirely and perhaps should be split.

mushmom wrote:

why are we frum? ah.... thats a whole other discussion.

Motek pointed out to me that there is a thread in Judaism called
"FFBs why are you frum"

gryp

Fri, May 11 2007, 10:22 am

Quote:

but what I find it difficult to grasp is how can I even begin to have the right intention if I already have different intentions. I can't just get rid of those feelings.

Esti, I think the trick is to channel those feelings differently. Sort of like when Yaakov Avinu re-united with Yosef, he took all his feelings and with them said "Shema Yisroel." He channeled them towards Hashem. Obviously we can't compare to Yaakov Avinu by an stretch of our imagination.

Also, last week's (?) Tanya spoke about acquiring different levels of Yiras and Ahavas Hashem.

TzenaRena

Fri, May 11 2007, 11:57 am

EstiS wrote:

When Elkanah says to Chana " Am I not better to you than ten sons", it is an allusion to our connection to Hashem. Do we we want to have children because of our own delight and fulfillment in having children, when really, our dveikus - attachment to the G-d and meriting the highest levels of Divine revelation is foremost and higher than physical birthing of children? Chassidus explains that in actuality, for us to create a "dirah b'tachtonim" a dwelling place for G-d in the physical world, is the G-dly intention, it is the true purpose of our existence, and the highest measure of unity with Hashem that we can acheive.

It is this inner cognizance of our mission to create the dirah b'tachtonim that impels us to carry out the structure and gashmius'dike setting for it. That is: the inner desire to be connected to Hashem is the real motivation. the outer trappings of other less altruistic mottives don't diminish that, and in fact just serve that purpose.

That is why we need to eat, because the Divine spark which is in the bread nourishes our soul, and the physical urge to eat is serving that need.