I am very curious about not making aliyah

↑ Reality ↓

Sat, Jun 22 2024, 4:25 pm

Success10 wrote:

I hope you're not accusing me of saying that, cuz I didn't.

You said many are running away.

I guess my family member who made aliyah from Lakewood in order to raise their children in a less gashmius place is dysfunctional and running away from their hometown.

As you all know, I made aliyah pretty recently. The majority of the families I know who are also recent olim in my children's classes are typical run of the mill families.

↑ Success10 ↓

Sat, Jun 22 2024, 4:42 pm

Reality wrote:

You are twisting my words. I didn't say that. I said many had other reasons in addition to their love of Israel and desire to be here. I'm not replying anymore.

↑ thesoundofmusic ↓

Sat, Jun 22 2024, 6:05 pm

I posted the question.
for all those who called me judemental: I used to be very ! I have worked on myself tremendously not to be. I asked because I wanted to know. I read everysingle answer and I respect those who were able to answer honestly. I am not trying to convince anyone to make aliya. I was genuienly curious.
all of the answered opened me up to new ideas. thank you.
kol hakavod to those who made aliya and kol hakavod to those who stay for reasons that are important to them and thier families.

amother

↑ Outerspace ↓

Sat, Jun 22 2024, 10:25 pm

thesoundofmusic wrote:

I don’t think it was you who came across as judgmental. It was some other poster

amother

↑ Mustard ↓

Sat, Jun 22 2024, 10:27 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

95% how many families do you know? People who moved after they got married and took it year by year or people who made aliyah?

Also what's the percentage of kids in your community now that are OTD? Just curious, personally I don't see a bigger amount of Americans OTD than Israelis. Happens to everyone, everywhere.

We know a bunch of people who made aliyah. Almost all of them came back.

Yes kids go off the derech everywhere. But these are families who had a kid go off within a few years of making aliyah. Of course no one knows what would have happened if they stayed. But if this happens to a lot of people, it's understandable that it would be cause for hesitation.

amother

↑ Mustard ↓

Sat, Jun 22 2024, 10:29 pm

essie14 wrote:

95%???
How is that even possible?
Honeymooners who move back are not people who made aliyah.
I know hundreds and hundreds of people who made aliyah. Maybe even a thousand.
I don't even know 5% who have moved back.

No, I am not talking about honeymooners. I'm talking about people who made aliyah later, with kids.

I said 95% of people who I know.

amother

↑ Mustard

Sat, Jun 22 2024, 10:32 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Then you obviously dont know many olim.
Im here over 20 years and know of possibly a handful of people who left. But know hundreds or more, of olim who came, and stayed and live wonderful normal lives.

Maybe I don't. But 95% of the people who I know came back. It's understandable that if that is someone's personal experience they might not run to go. If 95% of people who you knew who undertook a daunting task ended up coming back, would you be so quick to try it yourself?

amother

Scarlet

Sat, Jun 22 2024, 10:42 pm

Honestly?
For one, it’s hard for me to imagine finding a community I’d fit into. IME, living in Israel you’re forced to pick a box to fit into-to identify as chareidi, or dati leumi, etc. I’d probably fit most closely into chareidi, but there are a lot of things about that culture I don’t like.
Second, it would be so hard to raise kids in a totally different culture than mine. I don’t speak Hebrew well, forget about slang! I wouldn’t understand their language, their friends, their struggles…this would be so hard for me.
Third, I’d miss my family a lot. I really rely on their support
Fourth, I don’t know what I’d do for parnassah
Fifth, my family BH is doing well here. DH is shteiging, loves his yeshiva, his chavrusahs, is working towards a specific goal in his learning, my kids BH have friends and good schools. I have a good job. Why would I want to move?

amother

Lightgray ↓

Sat, Jun 22 2024, 10:52 pm

I am constantly surprised that people can't understand why other people wouldn't want to make Aliyah. While it's a very nice thought that oh all Jews have a place in Israel, that's really simplistic thinking. People are complex and their needs and desires and goals are complex. Personally, my whole family is here, my kids are happy and thriving, I have a career I like that doesn't exist in Israel and my husband has a job he loves that would make 1/10 of what he makes there. I love my house, I have no desire to live in an apartment and I can't afford a standalone house in Israel. I don't feel the need to escape from "gashmiyus" and honestly I've never felt particularly interested in the Israeli lifestyle or and I don't like the culture. We all have mitzvahs that we feel more connected to and less connected to. I love going to the Mikvah, I find it a special and holy experience. I have friends who strongly dislike it. Why would anyone be surprised that some people feel a strong need to move and others don't connect to that mitzvah.

I also get totally turned off by these types of threads where the posters who made aliyah imply that everyone who doesn't is "less than" or as one poster on this thread put it "My mitzvot count, everything done in chutz laaretz is actually just practice for here." I'll let my husband and kids know no mitzvah they do "counts". If that's the type of person who I'd be living amongst in Israel -- no thanks, I'll pass.

amother

Banana ↓

Sat, Jun 22 2024, 10:53 pm

amother Babypink wrote:

Maybe this is controversial but in my circles (yeshivish lite/JPF) the only families who make Aliyah are those with “issues”. Not bad people but atypical in different ways. For example, many come from dysfunctional parents so have no close family ties keeping them in the US. Some have extreme financial, school, or social issues and it’s they’re hoping for a positive change in a new place. At the end of the day picking up your family and moving to a new country, changing your language, culture, friends, jobs is a radical act, a beautiful one but still radical, and most settled, healthy people in my circles understandably don’t do it.

Alot of truth Here
A regular family with parents and in laws close by , supporting emotionally
sometimes financially
Getting together often, going for shabbos etc parents helping out with babysitting or another hand when needed
Kids all happy in schools highs schools etc
Parent jobs and all settled

They will be absolutely crazy to pick up and leave ?? Why would someone rock the boat like that?

Kind of like telling someone with nice family all settled in Israel pick up and come to America!!! Like no way!!!

amother

Hawthorn ↓

Sat, Jun 22 2024, 10:55 pm

My husband and I have only been to Israel 1 time many years ago. We have no family there, no work , no friends …In America, we have a life and we are settled here with our family. Moving would take a lot out of us and would be a huge transition and adjustment. We don’t know our way. we’d have to learn everything from scratch , and no means to make money. We would be totally alone. Here we have a good life. Why would we uproot our family and do something irresponsible and probably damaging to our children?

amother

↑ Oxfordblue

Sat, Jun 22 2024, 11:00 pm

Thesoundofmusic, in your first post you mentioned NY, Stamford Hill, Australia, and there’s even more to chul than those three places. There are a lot of different types and groups of Orthodox Jews living in chul. I think that’s what’s being ignored in this thread. When someone says 95% of the people they know who made aliyah came back to chul, and then someone else says most people they know who made aliyah stayed, I suspect they’re from very different groups. Some groups in chul easily find a group to fit into in Israel. Certain types in chul really can’t find their place there. One person I know who made aliyah and returned to the U.S. was honest with me about how they tried to make it work, moved to a few different communities but just couldn’t find their place. Another family I know experienced extreme financial difficulties after trying to live in Israel for close to ten years. Eventually they left, got jobs in their professions and worked pay back the loans they took from friends and neighbors.
There are a lot of different factors involved and a lot of different ways families can adjust or find it impossible to adjust. I don’t know what makes you so curious op. Some people do well with marriage, child raising, parnassa, home ownership, careers, business, and others don’t. Aliyah is no different. For the most part most of us would love in theory to live in Israel. It works for some, not for others.

out-of-towner

Sat, Jun 22 2024, 11:24 pm

Not all of us believe with certainty that being in EY will be the last stop before the Geula. Of course we all can hope and dream, and of course we all believe that Moshiach can come at any moment, the two beliefs aren't contradictory. But we are in Galus, and Galus is Galus even while being in EY.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sat, Jun 22 2024, 11:43 pm

amother Banana wrote:

And yet, hundreds of thousands of completely notmal families do just that.

amother

Ballota ↓

Sat, Jun 22 2024, 11:58 pm

thesoundofmusic wrote:

I just finished reading the yeshiva world news antisemitisem is terrifying.
attacks in new york, stamford hill, australia and more.
I am not asking this in a judgemental way I am really curious. why wouldnt someone choose to move to israel. I dont specifically mean right this second with the was going on
although my personal opinion is that even with the war going on israel is safer.
its not like people who made aliya 40 years ago that it was so hard and so different....
you can live in a beautiful home, find the mosdos that are matim for your family, tuition is a small percent of what it is in chutz laratz.
great health care. so many english speakers and best of all amazon that delivers)
oh - and the kedushah!
wondering what peoples thoughts are......

Um, why, exactly?
40+ Jews died in Israel for being Jews the year before the war.
Have there been any Jews who died in Chul for being Jews recently?
I live and have extended family in NY. I don't know anyone who was attacked. I feel perfectly safe walking in my frum attire, much more than when I was in Israel and had to be careful with every turn we made when out of heavily Jewish neighborhoods.
Our hopes for Israel's future notwithstanding, Israel is NOT more safe at the moment for recognizable Jews. You may feel more safe and comfortable, but statistics don't support this feeling.

↑ small bean ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 12:03 am

amother Ballota wrote:

I don't think it matters in Israel if you look Jewish or not.

In America, if they can tell yourJewish, you are definitley a bigger target, although very few people are actually targeted.

amother

↑ Ballota ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 12:06 am

small bean wrote:

I don't think it matters in Israel if you look Jewish or not.

In America, if they can tell yourJewish, you are definitley a bigger target, although very few people are actually targeted.

IIRC, Most of the victims of recent terror attacks were frum.
Israeli chilonim, with their sun burnt skin, look very much middle Eastern. It would make sense for a terrorist to seek out a definite Jew.

amother

↑ Outerspace ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 12:10 am

I posted quite a number of reasons above. Another reason for me is that right now my girls are in a school that meets our hashkafah with a relatively decent class size. If we moved to Israel, any school within our Hashkafic parameters would have many more girls per class.