What I am advocating is Jewish women continuing to have the children they want to, and organizations continuing to subsidize day camp.
How long is that sustainable? If you are advocating that every Jewish family have as many children as they possibly can, irregardless of the family's ability to support the children financially or emotionally (I'm not clear if you're advocating the latter or not), then where does the money to subsidize come from? Virtually every family will be stretched to its financial limit.
Why is that your concern? A relative's guests once totally started in on me for sending my high school age sons to yeshivos that do not teach secular studies. Their indignant reasoning was that "the system will collapse in 50 years". I really felt like saying, "What the heck do you care? You'll be dead by then."
And just to clarify for the millionth time- this thread was intented to discuss how OP is upset that camp is considered by some as a "need" and not a "luxury." Mamabear's opinion was that it is a need for her since she has a unique family scenario. OP did not mean people like her. Gryp's opinion was that it is a need for many and is important enough that it should be supported with tzedaka. She then brought some examples from her life that have nothing to do with this, since Gryp has stated numerous times that she can afford to send her kids so it is not an issue. OP did not mean people like her (but since her examples from her life are lame, they have ruined her case for why camp is a need and caused endless arguments as to how she is proving that camp is not a need, and only spoiled brat or bad mommys think it's a need). Mammabear, please don't feel the need to defend yourself. This thread is not about you or your life at all. Mazel tov on the upsherin!
And just to clarify for the millionth time- this thread was intented to discuss how OP is upset that camp is considered by some as a "need" and not a "luxury." Mamabear's opinion was that it is a need for her since she has a unique family scenario. OP did not mean people like her. Gryp's opinion was that it is a need for many and is important enough that it should be supported with tzedaka. She then brought some examples from her life that have nothing to do with this, since Gryp has stated numerous times that she can afford to send her kids so it is not an issue. OP did not mean people like her (but since her examples from her life are lame, they have ruined her case for why camp is a need and caused endless arguments as to how she is proving that camp is not a need, and only spoiled brat or bad mommys think it's a need). Mammabear, please don't feel the need to defend yourself. This thread is not about you or your life at all. Mazel tov on the upsherin!
If you don't mind, farm, the reason for my posting was to give a little reality dose into the lives of people with young kids since many older women seemed to have forgotten. Proof being, that every idea in this thread from women without toddlers was unhelpful and unrealistic.
Note to self: Before posting next time, ask farm's opinion, if she thinks my post is relevant.
Note #2 to self: Most people here don't read what you write, they read what they want to read. Your friends warned you about not wasting your time, why didn't you listen???
What I am advocating is Jewish women continuing to have the children they want to, and organizations continuing to subsidize day camp.
How long is that sustainable? If you are advocating that every Jewish family have as many children as they possibly can, irregardless of the family's ability to support the children financially or emotionally (I'm not clear if you're advocating the latter or not), then where does the money to subsidize come from? Virtually every family will be stretched to its financial limit.
Why is that your concern? A relative's guests once totally started in on me for sending my high school age sons to yeshivos that do not teach secular studies. Their indignant reasoning was that "the system will collapse in 50 years". I really felt like saying, "What the heck do you care? You'll be dead by then."
Which reminds me about the nachash, the snake, who was punished by having to eat dust it's whole life. So what's the curse, after all he doesn't have to support himself, being that dust is plentiful! So why is the snake such a morose fellow? Simple, he's worried what will happen after he eats up the whole Kaddur Ha'aretz, how will he sustain himself then?
Last edited by TzenaRena on Wed, Jul 06 2011, 4:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
Isramom I'm not the one who decides, everyone decides for themselves as we well know. But why should X decide to have more kids which she knows she can't afford so that I will be forced to support them? Because in truth that is what happens. There is barely enough money to go around for what already exists but if a woman decides just for the sake of having children for procreations sake with no way to support them basing it not that hashem himself will provide as he did in mitzrayim with absolutely no bosom vodom having to give anything, but on setting these kids up for poverty and to live on charity it is not the Jewish way.
We are not in mitzrayim. That is not an example to learn from. The answer to mitzrayim was not zedoko. You could ask how women who thought that their children may be killed continued to have kids in the ghettos. Because no zedoko would help, only a miracle. That's different.
That's not what you are advocatingl These women are not looking for a miracle to save from annihilation. They are COUNTING milechaschila on alms for the poor.
How pathetic.
How unjewish
I have never heard a jewish woman advocate what you seem to be advocating. It's off the wall in my book.
While there are many situations practically when a couple must limit their family size, what you are saying makes no sense. If people coul have mesiras nefesh with those dangers to have children, how much more so we can have mesiras nefesh to have children today. So I get that there are valid streams of Judaism that say that you fulfill your mitzva of having children by having a boy or girl or any other variation that ppl hold halachicly, but that doesn't take away from the HUGE mitzvas asay of having children. Sure there are many exceptions, but people need to understand the value of children, and then judge their own situation accordingly.
And I have no judgement on peoples individual decisions, but looking at the bigger picture I completely disagree with your viewpoint. Btw, I think having and raising children always comes with mesiras nefesh in one way or another, I remember a high school teacher talking about the value of sacrificing for torah, and a student raised her hand and asked what if someone has money, do they not get that zechus of sacrificing for torah. Now this teacher happened to be very wealthy personally. She stopped, and said in a very quiet slow voice, that while some people don't have the test of sacrificing physically for torah, everyone makes sacrifices for what is important to them in one way or another. I see the same for having children, raising them the right way etc. There is no greater zechus, and yes it is as important today as it was during any time in Jewish history. (Whether I am going to give my tzedaka for your kid to go to summer camp, or tell you to figure something else out is a different question!)
Since I have been getting many concerned and supportive PMs I just want to post an update:
My almost 3 yr old has BH started a full-day therapy program yesterday and it's incredible how my life has normalized overnight. He is thriving there; he comes home happy and lebedig, and also hungry enough to eat supper and tired enough not to have energy to ransack the house. My house is clean for the first time in a year!
I have been able to start taking care of myself again. I can eat, I can finally cook supper!!! for the first time in months. Today I spent five hours on the street taking care of various errands and did not arrive home a wrung-out shmatta. I was able to take care of a long to-do list of matters pertaining to the upsherin and the big move, in a span of 2 days! The fridge and pantry got filled and the laundry got washed and dried. My husband came home from work and found a calm wife and happy kids and clean house. I wanted to find an industrial sized microphone and exhale loudly from the rooftops. I am going to mentally delete the last 12 months from my brain and pretend it never happened.
May it all get even better from here, BE"H; I think my son will do very well in his new program, and I have gotten my life back. So I just wanted to let those of you who are concerned for me know, that things have calmed down tremendously around here BH.
Since I have been getting many concerned and supportive PMs I just want to post an update:
My almost 3 yr old has BH started a full-day therapy program yesterday and it's incredible how my life has normalized overnight. He is thriving there; he comes home happy and lebedig, and also hungry enough to eat supper and tired enough not to have energy to ransack the house. My house is clean for the first time in a year!
I have been able to start taking care of myself again. I can eat, I can finally cook supper!!! for the first time in months. Today I spent five hours on the street taking care of various errands and did not arrive home a wrung-out shmatta. I was able to take care of a long to-do list of matters pertaining to the upsherin and the big move, in a span of 2 days! The fridge and pantry got filled and the laundry got washed and dried. My husband came home from work and found a calm wife and happy kids and clean house. I wanted to find an industrial sized microphone and exhale loudly from the rooftops. I am going to mentally delete the last 12 months from my brain and pretend it never happened.
May it all get even better from here, BE"H; I think my son will do very well in his new program, and I have gotten my life back. So I just wanted to let those of you who are concerned for me know, that things have calmed down tremendously around here BH.
B'H! so happy to hear this ,your son should be masliach in his new program
I don't see too many extremely rich MO people having more kids, either. Even when you have a neurosurgeon married to a CEO (or whatever), people tend to stick to 3 kids. Occasionally 4.
I think it's more cultural than financial.
In Israel I don't find that poorer people have fewer kids - they just move further and further out of town. Go to places like Elon Moreh or the "caravilla" cities, there are plenty of families with 8 kids, one 20-year-old car, and not much else.
eta - OK I see what you're saying now. That's interesting. It does somewhat match what I've seen.
In my shul, the average established family (meaning, those who are done or near done having kids) seems to have 5+. Those are the rich ones who can afford tuition though.
It seems to me though that a lot of my contemporaries are having less kids than their parents did because of tuition. I'm talking about those in their late 20s early 30s (or at least talking about having less).
we found this apartment 1 1/2 wks ago. Makes staying home totally worth. Not only that, I think HaShem found us this apartment specifically now, because staying home in this top floor garbuccino in the summer is a mental suicide mission . we didnt stay home because of the move; we stayed home for other reasons and bh found this.
we found this apartment 1 1/2 wks ago. Makes staying home totally worth. Not only that, I think HaShem found us this apartment specifically now, because staying home in this top floor garbuccino in the summer is a mental suicide mission . we didnt stay home because of the move; we stayed home for other reasons and bh found this.
I once heard that LIFE is like a wheel, once it hits the ground, it starts going back up. May it only get better and better for you from now on.
If tuition is really the only reason they stop, it is so sad to me. I would rather move to a cheaper place, or even be frugal, if really that's the only reason. I also think a clean public school with a kodesh tutor would be much better (if that's cheaper).
If tuition is really the only reason they stop, it is so sad to me. I would rather move to a cheaper place, or even be frugal, if really that's the only reason. I also think a clean public school with a kodesh tutor would be much better (if that's cheaper).
Totally agree with you Ruchel, not about the public school though, but about finding a cheaper place to live where the tuition is less and housing is less so that we dont have to stop having children just because the tuition is too high. Sad to me
I just read the first page of this thread again. Some of you moms do/did not care if you don't/didn't know where your kids are/were for a few days in the summer?
Even with my dorming teens/early 20s and married dd, I know basically where they are. I really think I'd know if they went somewhere for a few days. Cell phones help in that way. "Hi, where are you, Sweetie?"
Once kids dorm, obviously I don't know where they are every minute. With over 18s, I train myself not to ask. My dd comes home, says she will be back later, I say "See you then!" But a few days? Wow.
Isramom, what do you think we did here BEFORE there were cell phones? Heck, we lived from 4.5 years without phones at all. My parents had absolutely no clue where I was, sometimes from morning to well past midnight. If I go to sleep and one of the boys isn't home, I also don't have a clue.
