The boys camps in my community - both sleepaway and city day camps - focus 90% on continuing learning, 10% on fun.
The girls day/ camp is totally for fun....
My mother in law used to be the ONLY mother in the entire bungalow colony who didnt send her kids to the in-colony daycamp. They preferred to swim all day. My MIL would bring her snacks, reading material, nursing baby, changes of diapers etc etc there and sit there all day:D. She was the only person in the entire colony to not send her kids to day camp!
I had that top refrigerator lock when my special needs (behavioral/emotional/language delayed/short attention span/very active) son was 3-4 years old and was going through a stage of cracking all my eggs on the kitchen floor and sprinkling shredded cheese in it and other lovely things like that. I had it set overnight for 12 hours and he still pulled it right off.
I had that top refrigerator lock when my special needs (behavioral/emotional/language delayed/short attention span/very active) son was 3-4 years old and was going through a stage of cracking all my eggs on the kitchen floor and sprinkling shredded cheese in it and other lovely things like that. I had it set overnight for 12 hours and he still pulled it right off.
Which is why I posted the bottom one as well. My DS was quite the little locksmith. Suffice it to say that one particular venue had the same gate lock that it considered to be childproof for 20 years before my son came along.
So now its official. Imamother has decided that you can get a heter for BC if you can't afford camp. I will inform my Rav tomorrow.
Did you read the rest of this thread or are you being deliberately stupid?
If you can't afford camp you don't get a heter for BC and you don't send to camp.
If you can't afford camp and you will fall apart if you don't send your kids, you probably need a heter for BC nothing at all to do with the camp issue (unless it is a temporary difficult situation, but everyone already agreed those children should be helped).
BTW, about the boys - why don't you do what we do in EY and just continue cheder? Here the boys only have off bein hazemanim - erev TB till Rosh Chodesh Elul. If your sons' Torah education is so important to you (and it should be), why do they close the chadarim/yeshivos for 2 or 3 months?
Why no drill locks? Drill "ve'od eich" with a padlock with either a key or a combination.
Works wonders.
We have one on the fridge at work and before anyone asks, yes it is an Israeli fridge (tadiran-amcor) but it isn't an old one at all...meaning it the problem is serious enough, it's possible.
Isramom how did you sleep? I couldn't fall asleep until 5 and got almost zilch sleep, it's hot here at night even which we aren't used to.
Back to topic.
Why are people who have problems and post about them unwilling to listen to anyone else's suggestions about shortcuts. I'm super organized but have picked up some really good tips here of things which I haven't done for a while. Sure in EY internet shopping for groceries is much more expensive than going to the store but I have a car and I am no longer shopping for a family of five kids full time as some are married and others are away. But if I were? And didn't have a car? Or strength or time? You betcha I would suck up the cost and cut in quantity of food or something like that.
I see my daughter with whom I spent part of yesterday evening. Married, toddler, almost giving birth, husband never around (resident at hospital), working full time. How does she cope? She decides on her priorities. And her priority is raising her son. So the house goes to hades (until her shvigger couldn't stand it anymore and pays for a girl twice a month to do the basics which my daughter doesn't do, like dusting, floors, bathrooms, sinks), she shops basics and doesn't cook, eats very simply (which is how she stays thin and as her husband eats half the time at the hospital it isn't a problem) and all her time from when she comes home from work until she goes to sleep when her toddler does, is devoted to him. Teaching him, playing with him, taking him places etc. she will do the same when the new baby is born and with the one after and after until whenever. Because as she said, her kids are her priority. All the rest is unimportant.
What does that have to do with SAHMs? Well my grandson is the kind who can't sit still for more than 30 seconds, will take apart anything he sees, and climb anywhere. That's why they had to put metal strings on their windows to protect him from falling as he can scramble up a doorframe (yes, at 2 already) and hang from the top. Like his daddy, very agile.
And before anyone says "well she only has one" she also helps out for days on end with her neices and nephews from her husband's sibling and is used to having three and four kids under the age of five in the house at once. And her priorities remain the same.
I couldn't live like that. It's a churva. But as my husband says, just look the other way and see how she raises kids. Which is incredible.
What I mean by this story is that everyone has to make priorities. If it is a priority for you to have a lavish upsheren with lots of full pekelach, as MB decided, it is your right to do so, but there are consequences. If you decide to let the house go to wherever like my daughter, it is your right to do so but there are consequences. I didn't pay for a cleaner for her, heck, I don't have one. It was her choice how to live and she agreed in full, not that she in her right mind would turn down the gift of a bi monthly cleaner by her shvigger. But she wouldn't have dreamed that she should ask for one..
that's the story in everything not only in sending kids to camp. Making lifestyle choices. Your right. Even imposing them on your kids. You're the grownup, so it's your right. Family isn't a democracy. But the world, as nice as it is to say so, isn't an extended family in truth and to expect the world, the community, your neighbors, stam strangers, to financially support your chosen lifestyle? In the first place - milechaschila - in my book that's chutzpa.
Well, as we read in pirkei ovos this week, we live in a dor (generation) of azus metzach, no? That's a nice way of saying "chutzpa"...
For the record...Freidasima's description of her DD's life sounds similar to mine. Except:
1. I have 3 children, not one.
2. I have 2 hours of cleaning help weekly, also paid for by someone who was incredulous that I was managing at all.
3. I have a vehicle...paid for by someone else (it's part of my salary; I pay taxes on it).
Before I had my vehicle, when DS#2 was born and DS#1 was under 2, I cut quantities and ordered online. It was more expensive, and I had to pay for delivery too, but since I was leaving at 6:45 and getting home at 6 (someone else was picking up DS#1 from daycare), I didn't really feel like going out to the supermarket, by bus, after 8:00. So I would wait until my pantries were empty and once a month I would do a big order online...one delivery fee instead of weekly. And DH would pick up milk at the regular supermarket on his way to or from somewhere.
Bottom line: do what works for you. Now that I have a vehicle (a luxury) I can't justify online grocery shopping (also a luxury). I can "justify" camp because I'd need to pay for some sort of daycare/childcare arrangements for my working hours anyway; working from home is not an option for me. My goal: find the least expensive way. So right now I have the "luxury" of a babysitter in my home 4 afternoons a week...but it was cheaper than sending the two oldest boys out for the same time period. The luxurious part is that one of the sitters will do the lunch dishes, as well as any dishes she finds in the sink at the same time.
I'm rambling. Not making my point well.
Point: Camp is not a luxury for someone who can afford it. Nor for someone who needs an arrangement for childcare anyway. Nor for someone who has a child whose needs can be best met by a program outside the home. BUT, for a mother who is not working (not WAHM nor outside the home), whose children do not have any "issues", and WHO DOES NOT HAVE THE FUNDS TO PAY FOR CAMP HERSELF, it is a luxury. We are only required to give tzedaka for such luxuries if someone fell on hard times; we are supposed to help maintain his previous lifestyle. But for someone who never has the money, and due to lifestyle choices never PLANS to have the money, to cover such an expense on their own, tzedaka does not have to be given to send their child(ren) to camp.
I slept with the air conditioning on 24 degrees C. Is that spoiled? It's Tamuz/July, in central Israel.
If you are asking for charity in order to pay for the A/C, then yes, it's spoiled.
(Disclaimer: I live in Israel w/o A/C)
We slept with the a/c at 28C most of the night last night. We NEVER sleep all night with the a/c. Not even when I was pregnant or immediately PP...we'd put it on at bedtime for an hour and all was good. Last night everyone kept waking up so I just left it on. LUXURY. But a luxury I can afford (in extreme moderation).
It is HOT! I agree in full. It's hard to sleep without a/c but there is the taftefet system which my friends in Emek Beit She'an used to use before they had a/c on the kibbutzim. A sheet with water or a screen with water dripping on a fan going continuously. Doesn't do much for the humidity but if you are in front of it, the tiny droplets in the air will cool you down. Baduk.
Is sleeping with a/c a luxury? Again, not if you can afford it. Geh gezint. If someone needs a certain temp for her health (not comfort but mamash health, like she has a continuous lowgrade fever or whatever), that's also a different story and you can use zedoko for that. But hey, we all prefer not to have humidity (which seems from what I know of the coast to be the real problem, not so much the heat) and we all prefer a temp. that is more comfy....however to use zedoko money for that? That's like saying I am more comfortable driving a new car with power steering than an old jalopy like my kids drove (which was older than they were, and they were in their mid 20s!) with no a/c no power steering, no electric windows, and it's a total hassle, especially on the hills of Jerusalem.
Yeah well. I didn't buy them a new car either. And they are my own kids.
So it really depends on the person, on their health, on the situation and on their finances.
Wait and get the electric bill and then we will talk.
So now its official. Imamother has decided that you can get a heter for BC if you can't afford camp. I will inform my Rav tomorrow.
Did you read the rest of this thread or are you being deliberately stupid?
If you can't afford camp you don't get a heter for BC and you don't send to camp.
If you can't afford camp and you will fall apart if you don't send your kids, you probably need a heter for BC nothing at all to do with the camp issue (unless it is a temporary difficult situation, but everyone already agreed those children should be helped).
BTW, about the boys - why don't you do what we do in EY and just continue cheder? Here the boys only have off bein hazemanim - erev TB till Rosh Chodesh Elul. If your sons' Torah education is so important to you (and it should be), why do they close the chadarim/yeshivos for 2 or 3 months?
Do you honestly think that Pickle Lady gets to decide what the chadorim are going to do? What makes you think she has any input at all?
Is sleeping with a/c a luxury? Again, not if you can afford it. Geh gezint. If someone needs a certain temp for her health (not comfort but mamash health, like she has a continuous lowgrade fever or whatever), that's also a different story and you can use zedoko for that.
But, freidasima, a luxury remains a luxury even if you can afford it.
Indoor plumbing is a luxury that we're all used to nowadays - but it's still a luxury.
Does that mean that you shouldn't give tzedakah to pay for another person's luxuries? Of course not. A person is allowed to even give tzedakah to pay for a "crier" to run ahead and announce a (formerly rich) person's arrival.
Wait and get the electric bill and then we will talk.
Yeah, I'm a little worried about that. It's why we never do it. I just decided last night that a slightly higher electric bill was worth a few hours' decent, uninterrupted sleep. How much could I have spent with it at 28C? (It was 35C without the a/c...the a/c doesn't even get turned on in our place unless it's over 30C inside...)
The way I was brought up was that even if someone could technically survive without something....but it would be painful, then it is a chessed and a tzeddakah to help them.
For example:
1. If someone's missing teeth and is walking around with gaping holes in their mouths because they can't afford to fix it, in my book it is a worthy mitzvah to help that person pay for it.
2. If someone has a sheital that looks worse than a mop and their daughter is getting married it is a mitzvah to subsidize or pay for a wig for that person.
3. If someone can't afford day camp and their kids are dancing up to their neck for two months straight...it is a mitzvah to help pay for it.
4. If someone is struggling to cope with a house full of young kids it is a mitzvah to help them clean their homes for shabbos or to pay someone to.
You get my point. We are about helping people who need help. Whether they are struggling with young kids, financial difficulties, emotional help whatever....the point is not whether I can manage without these things, the point is am I in a position to help, and if I am, then it is with great pleasure.
Again, a person is "allowed" to pay for a crier for a "formerly rich person".
Big difference.
Allowed, not chiyuv. Not being made to feel that they are a bad jew if they won't pay for it. And I doubt that people who didn't have criers themselves would pay for someone else to have them...that, chazal conveniently left out.
Formerly rich person.
That's not what we are discussing. We are discussing people who milechaschila can't afford something, ever, but continue in a chosen lifestyle waiting for someone else to foot the bill...
About a/c being a luxury, as I wrote, for certain health issues it is not, because without the a/c the health issue would become life threatening. When I got sick 12 years ago with what seems to be a chronic autoimmune style whatever I had a lowgrade fever which became dangerous, and which is when my doctor told us that we had to get an a/c for the bedroom I was lying in because without keeping my temp low it would be a sakono, literally. So that's when I learned about such things, unfortunately and yes, b"h after 7 years the fever subsided but it was awful.
Now I'm copying a post that I just put on the other thread about how this thread is making people sick, a parody of the title obviously. I am doing it because I think it says a lot about the importance of this thread and why we are still keeping it going (because there is still so much to discuss on the general topic)...
------------
The other thread is so much fun! It's respectful, no one is personally bashing anyone, and we are raising serious questions that have so much more to say about the Jewish world today than about camp. Seriously. It's not about SAHMs and it's not about WAHMs and it's not about career moms or anything else.
It's about what the boundaries are of needs, entitlements, social and educational necessities, lifestyle choices, and how much the "jewish people", that amorphous group, is to be cajoled, coerced, brainwashed or browbeaten into paying for it for other people. As I explain in the psychology seminars that I often moderate, there is the theory and the model, and then there is the example, which we call in Ivrit "Targil al model". There is the framework issue and there is the theoretical background, and then you see how your case in point fits into the theory, or rather does it fit. If it does, great. It re-proves the theory. But if it doesn't. They the question is as follows: Do you understand the theory correctly? Do you understand or interpret the case in point correctly? And if you do in both cases and the case doesn't fit the theory, do you need to look for a different existing theory to deal with and understand your case, or do you need to create a new theory?
That's basically what we are doing there, but mostly focusing on this "case" or that "case" however we are still delving into theory. The theory of what zedoko is, the theory of what being a SAHM entails by definition, the question of what a "luxury" and a "necessity" are depending on your point of view, and basically the question behind almost everything practical in the Jewish world: WHO WILL FOOT THE BILL?.
And the answer to that question has repercussions for everything in the Jewish world today. Which is why the thread is still going on at over 50 pages. Because we still have a lot to discuss on that topic. No one is trying to get anyone to change their mind over anything. But maybe some of us posters (and I've posted a lot on that thread) would like to sound out trends in the Jewish world today and see whether they are healthy or not, in order to be aware of them for our own lives, our own decisions and how we educate our children, grandchildren and interact with our close and further surroundings and circles with which we come in contact in the Jewish world during out daily lives.
So now its official. Imamother has decided that you can get a heter for BC if you can't afford camp. I will inform my Rav tomorrow.
Did you read the rest of this thread or are you being deliberately stupid?
If you can't afford camp you don't get a heter for BC and you don't send to camp.
If you can't afford camp and you will fall apart if you don't send your kids, you probably need a heter for BC nothing at all to do with the camp issue (unless it is a temporary difficult situation, but everyone already agreed those children should be helped).
BTW, about the boys - why don't you do what we do in EY and just continue cheder? Here the boys only have off bein hazemanim - erev TB till Rosh Chodesh Elul. If your sons' Torah education is so important to you (and it should be), why do they close the chadarim/yeshivos for 2 or 3 months?
Do you honestly think that Pickle Lady gets to decide what the chadorim are going to do? What makes you think she has any input at all?
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I started a new paragraph and it was addressed to the general 'you' as in all you guys and gals in America - start doing something about it. Up until ...should be helped). was addressed to PL, the rest to everyone as a general kol korei.
I had that top refrigerator lock when my special needs (behavioral/emotional/language delayed/short attention span/very active) son was 3-4 years old and was going through a stage of cracking all my eggs on the kitchen floor and sprinkling shredded cheese in it and other lovely things like that. I had it set overnight for 12 hours and he still pulled it right off.
Which is why I posted the bottom one as well. My DS was quite the little locksmith. Suffice it to say that one particular venue had the same gate lock that it considered to be childproof for 20 years before my son came along.
But I do have to love your son's creativity!
Eventually he got bored of that and starting throwing the eggs out the kitchen window into the courtyard six floors down. Two more stories about my son-
When I was 7-8 months pregnant with my third baby I babysat for two other boys in my apartment (a second two year old and a six month old). I was feeding the baby a bottle and went to check up on the the two year olds only to find that they had taken a bottle of ketchup and painted my kitchen with it.
Another time I was taking care of my own baby and smelled something cooking. I assumed that it was from a neighbor's apartment but went to go check on my son anyway. He had taken my sandwich maker, plugged it in and sprinkled both cheese and OU meat chicken noodle soup mix in it. When I found it, it was all cooked together.
Suffice is to say that I wasn't too amused at the time.
