Your Veiw on Open Orthodoxy

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 7:44 am

tichellady wrote:

My Rabbis, And I assume others, have better things to do with their time than to talk about other rabbis. They focus on halakhic questions, teaching, the needs of the community etc. I have never heard my rabbi saying anything negative about any jewish teacher or leader, even if he has different halakhic views.

Surely they're not positive about responsa allowing driving to shul on Shabbos.
Please note: I am NOT saying OO=Conservative. I am simply saying that you can have responsa from learned people who learned in leading yeshivos, as early Conservative leaders did, and they could be dead wrong, and reputable rabbis (which by me does not just include the ones I go to but is much broader) will call them on it, vociferously.

ETA: I'm treading carefully here. I just saw a related locked thread and deservedly so because there was ugly ad hominem. (And I'm referring to the unnecessary piece that started it, not just when my "peeps" were attacked.)

ETA #2: Just saw a locked thread with the poster explaining herself. Having engaged in tongue-in-cheek that's left people Scratching Head

myself, I'll cut her slack. Ah, the limitations of the internet...or maybe we need a tongue-in-cheek emoticon...

Last edited by PinkFridge on Sun, Dec 24 2017, 8:11 am; edited 2 times in total

↑ etky ↓

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 7:46 am

chanchy123 wrote:

I voted for the third option - it's not my place to give any movement or person the "Authentic Orthodox Award". I mean many things that other streams of Judaism, which are considered to be within the realm of Orthodoxy are doing, are beyond the pale halachicly - but as long as they consider themselves within the realm I think it's meaningless for me or anyone else to cast them out. The main point is whether they adhere to halacha or not - and I guess on both sides of the spectrum - they profess to halachic adherence - what else can you ask for. As long as you claim you're in - you're in in my book.

With that caveat many things OO are doing do concern me and make me feel uneasy (without giving them marks on the Orthodox scale or comparing them to any other Orthodox movement). For instance, recently, I came across a Maharat graduate, whom I was quite shocked to understand is married to a Conservative rabbi (this is not shocking in itself because being married to someone who is not part of your denomination doesn't necessarily have any bearing on your practice), is a community leader within his Conservative shul (not Conservodox - Conservative), is an interfaith activist in a form no Orthodox rabbi would permit and she still teaches a course in the Maharat program.
I would understand if she joined the program, became a Maharat and then changed her practice later on - but that really doesn't seem the case, especially since the program seems to embrace her current practice by hiring her as a teacher. This does not reflect very well on the program.

I do think some people who espouse Open Orthodox (or whatever you want to call it) views are walking a thin line between Orthodoxy and Conservatism. How does this reflect on the entire movement? I don't know, time will tell. I honestly don't think this is a conversation worth having today. I mean, we can discuss certain practices (many of which listed upthread seem completely legit to me - others not so much) and debate whether they fall within the boundaries of halacha or not - but as a movement it's way too young to see where it's going and if it's going anywhere.

Edited to add that I am Israeli DL I guess RWMO - so you know where I'm coming from

On the whole I agree and identify with Chanchy's position.
I am also extra hesitant to 'pronounce judgement' because, as an Israeli, I'm not sure that I am familiar with all the nuances of what Open Orthodoxy actually represents and which personalities are officially associated with the movement.
That said, I have read quite extensively on the specific topic of partnership minyanim and thus on that particular issue I do have a more solid opinion.
The halachic conversation that is taking place these days reveals the erudition and respect for the halachic process of both proponents and detractors of partnership minyanim alike. The discourse is very scholarly and often segues to a meta-halachic discussion which I find fascinating. It is here where the real differences between Open Orthodoxy and traditional Modern Orthodoxy come to the forefront. It seems to me that Open Orthodoxy's approach is more willing to employ tools that are available within the halachic system in order to minimize, insofar as possible, the dissonance that often exists between our modern sense of morality and halacha. Traditional Modern Orthodoxy is much more cautious in invoking these tools and in general is more wary of creating change in normative practice both for sociological reasons and because of the obvious dangers to the entire halachic system that such changes would usher in.
ETA - My own stance at the moment is that I can't get behind the idea of partnership minyanim in the format that I see around me, in many communities. There are halachic arguments in favor but they seem too weak and stretched to support something so potentially disruptive, in so many ways.

Last edited by etky on Sun, Dec 24 2017, 7:54 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 9:38 am

DrMom wrote:

I don't know why you find it so interesting. I have never looked into it in any depth.

Again, I have neither endorsed or disavowed OO. I am open to learning more about their ideas.

Even if I might not be on board with all of their ideas, I like the fact that they are thinking creatively and innovating. If some of these innovations fall within the bounds of halacha, I would seriously consider those ideas, even if some of their other ideas are more controversial.

I find it interesting that nobody has quoted a mainstream Rabbi who is on board with this movement - my understanding is that there isn't any.

If you haven't looked into OO, you should. I quoted earlier somewhere the European Rabbanim's position on OO, here is a Kol Korei that came out in 2015:

“OPEN ORTHODOXY,” and its leaders and affiliated entities (including, but not limited to, Yeshivat Chovevei Torah, Yeshivat Maharat, and International Rabbinic Fellowship), have shown countless times that they reject the basic tenets of our faith, particularly the authority of the Torah and its Sages. Accordingly, they are no different than other dissident movements throughout our history that have rejected these basic tenets.

We therefore inform the public that in our considered opinion, “Open Orthodoxy” is not a form of Torah Judaism (Orthodoxy), and that any rabbinic ordination (which they call “semicha”) granted by any of its affiliated entities to their graduates does not confer upon them any rabbinic authority.

May the Almighty have mercy on the remnants of His people and repair all breaches in the walls of the Torah, and may we be worthy to witness the raising of the glory of Hashem and His sacred Torah

Cheshvan 5776
MOETZES GEDOLEI HATORAH OF AMERICA

Last edited by Mommyg8 on Sun, Dec 24 2017, 9:58 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ SpottedBanana ↓

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 9:45 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

And it is important to note that AFAIK such a declaration has never been made by the Moetzes with regard to Modern Orthodoxy, Young Israel, the RCA, the OU, YU, etc.

↑ chanchy123 ↓

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 9:51 am

etky wrote:

I
To my understanding partnership minyanim are not synonymous with OO. As of now, these streams are trying very hard to work within the confines of Orthodoxy. Sometimes they stretch the borders other times they have will take a value and try to force Orthodoxy on it - instead of looking what the Torah wants from us they will try to look for Torah justification for values they already have (but I guess that's but unique to OO).
I do think some of these people may cross the line in the future, but but just yet.

↑ DrMom ↓

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 10:01 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Some of us are coming from a different direction: Painful as some of the dilemmas (agunos, of course, is probably on everyone's minds) if some of the innovations fall withOUT the bounds of halacha then regrettably, we couldn't consider any of their ideas.

I understand this point of view, but I disagree with it.

If someone proposes a valid idea, I won't *davka* dismiss it out of hand just because some of their other ideas are not to my liking.

I would evaluate each idea on its own merit.

Otherwise, the only ideas we adopt are from people who never generate any controversy ever, and those ideas are less likely to be innovative. When there are difficult issues to tackle, I'd prefer a wide funnel of ideas from which to choose.

Analogously, I admire Chabad's mission to reach non-observant Jews, and I think other Jewish groups could learn a lot from their ideas and dedication to this cause -- even though I have strong reservations about some of their ideas about Moshiach. I don't dismiss their ideas because of this one point of contention.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 10:07 am

DrMom wrote:

DrMom, we are a "bnei brak" family and we have reservations with Chabad as well. But we consider Lubavitch as part of Orthodoxy. The Moetzes has NOT come out against any other sector except Open Orthodoxy, as SpottedBanana has pointed out.

Any innovations that were possible to be done within halacha have already been done. I think that ANYONE who thinks that Rabbanim have not looked into the Agunah question from every angle possible, and have sweated and lost sleep over this issue, has just not looked into the facts too closely.

So if you see that this stream of Orthodoxy has certain innovations that other streams don't have - you can rest assured that these innovations are completely out of the pale of mainstream Halacha.

↑ DrMom ↓

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 10:21 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

As a scientist/engineer, it seems there are always new ideas to be examined, new leaves to be overturned. I'd imagine that there are always creative ideas out there, and if a problem is really vexing, I'm happy to consider new solutions!

Also (I do not mean this to be insulting to you in any way): The Moetzes has probably condemns many things that are quite routine in my DL community, so their condemnation does not mean so much to me.

For the record, I am not intimately familiar with OO's platform. It sounds like many people here are spreading unsubstantiated rumors, so I will hold off judgement until I do more research.

Last edited by DrMom on Sun, Dec 24 2017, 10:24 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ etky ↓

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 10:22 am

chanchy123 wrote:

Synonymous, no. One is a movement and the other is a practice that some of the proponents of this movement endorse. For example, R' Ysoscher Katz, who is associated with YCT is the author of a teshuva in which he argues that women are halachically allowed to receive aliyot.
Women are called to the Torah in many partnership minyanim throughout Israel. I don't know whether they are officially considered Open Orthodox or something else. I know that some are affiliated with Shirah Hadasha in Jerusalem and some with Mechon Hadar in NY which I believe is considered Open Orthodox. Some are not formally affiliated with any other shul or movement so they are perhaps harder to classify.
BTW I just want to add that I know quite a few of the main actors behind both the more established and the newer partnership/egalitarian minyanim here in Israel and they are all - to a man/woman - learned and serious in their commitment to Halacha. I may not agree with their approach but I have the utmost respect and admiration for them as individuals.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 10:32 am

DrMom wrote:

I respect your expertise as a scientist/engineer, but I can assure you that in the halachic process there have been some really great and innovative minds who have worked on many different contemporary problems. I am completely confident that the solutions that they have come up with are the best solutions that there are, within the confines of normative halacha. To be clear, Halachah does not have a similar process to engineering. It's not the same at all.

The Moetzes has never condemned any other branch of Orthodoxy as being "not Orthodox".

PF wrote this story in a different thread, but this is a story that bears repeating:

When R' Zev Gold, the leader of the World Mizrachi Organization, came to Baltimore, he stayed by R' Yaakov Yitzchok Ruderman. Someone questioned R' Gold why he stayed with R' Ruderman who was "not Mizrachi". Rabbi Gold answered "Because with R' Ruderman I have differences over one mitzvah. With you, I have differences over dozens of mitzvos." (Rabbi Frand, "In Print", pg. 219).

We have differences of opinion, sometimes strong differences of opinion, but we are all considered Orthodox. When you start tinkering with basics of Judaism, then this is no longer considered part of Orthodoxy.

↑ DrMom ↓

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 10:37 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

With which basics of Judaism is OO tinkering? This part is not so clear to me.

I don't trust info from a poster who pops in and unloads a rumor like "I think I heard somewhere that they don't believe in kashrut" and then disappears. I would like to hear things from OO folks themselves.