Speech in Neemas Hachaim last night

PinkFridge

Fri, May 17 2019, 9:50 am

amother [ Green ] wrote:

Ok. but don't blame me for viewing them as women who are breaching a standard that wasn't previously breached. Not judging (since we're all so afraid of saying that), but viewing...

You're amother but I'll say this under my name.

I challenge EVERYONE to wear skirts long enough to cover when sitting. And from the back, when bending over or reaching for something.
It can look so aidel in the dressing room that's too small to have something to sit on so all you see is standing when you try it on but leave the rulers at home and do those simple tests.

And if you don't, don't complain when "breaches" happen. Kids are noticing and growing cynical. Or just as bad if not worse, assuming it's fully appropriate.

I may delete this later. Please don't quote, we don't need more kitrug. But OTOH, IT HAS TO BE SAID.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Fri, May 17 2019, 9:51 am; edited 2 times in total

amother

↑ Plum ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 9:50 am

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

OK, so I will say this as a practical exercise to figure out what minhag hamakom is for each individual:

If the women in your social group are growing women, people who are careful about halacha, women who are covering their knees properly, are not trying to attract attention unnecessarily etc. And they also do not cover their legs, that would indicate that your personal minhag hamakom is not to cover legs.

And the converse is true as well.

Lol you cant just make things up because it makes sense to you!
Minhag hamakom is a real concept, not one that we can all just decide how we think it should be applied. It doesnt just go according to your little "social group". And what if your social group is not a cookie cutter set of individuals? Do you go according to the majority? Or minimum 3/5? Or 75%? You cant just make things up.

Again, my Rav clearly said, minhag hamakom does not apply in monsey ny. He could have told me to look at my social group, but evidently thats not how minhag hamakom works.

amother

↑ Smokey ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 9:51 am

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

Yeah ok. So thats like if you move to a community like williamsburg and you wear your type of stockings, someone else there may "view" you as breaching a standard that wasnt previously breached, because there they mainly wear seamed stockings.

But that still doesnt make your plain stockings so wrong, doles it?

Wrong in whose eyes?

Actually, my rav once told me that if I'm going to a chassidishe area for Shabbos or work, it would be appropriate to wear much thicker stockings, even though he holds our minhag hamakom is to wear any thickness, (even if it looks like I'm wearing almost nothing).

amother

↑ Green ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 9:54 am

amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:

where do you live?

Why? Sound like utopia and you want to join? Sorry, but not outing myself. And yeah, I do have to correct myself that its a sweeping statement and women aren't excused for EVERYTHING and carry absolutely no responsibility, but the average guy in our community has weekly or monthly 'chaburas' where they discuss mussar and avodas Hashem; they have weekly devar Torah's during shalosh seudos which they eat in shul where the rav's Torah may be inspirational and/or contain words of mussar. They have Shabbos Hagadol and Shabbos Tsheva drashos which generally contain both words of inspiration and mussar. Women MAY attend these drashos too, but the men are expected to, and the mussar is directed to them.

amother

↑ Smokey ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 10:01 am

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

I hear what you're saying, and perhaps I'm remiss in using that phraseology. I was trying to make a point, that you can't just decide to do what you want based on what the style is in your area. Are your influencers following basic halacha? If not, be careful not to copy them!

As an aside, if your Rav says there's no minhag hamakom in Monsey (which makes perfect sense considering the diversity, not that he needs my haskama), what is his psak for you about covering legs?

Maryann

Fri, May 17 2019, 10:05 am

amother [ Green ] wrote:

I don't live in LKWD, but in my community, the men take a lot more mussar than women, a lot more responsibility, a lot more accountability. Women are left to get away with things bec. they are hormonal, work so hard, are emotional, had this that or the other in their past so we have to be understanding, etc.

Never heard of such a thing!
But you posted under amother so won't take this literally

amother

↑ Green

Fri, May 17 2019, 10:14 am

Pink Fridge, I'm not quoting, but 2 wrongs don't make it right. But maybe its not wrong. I don't know. I'm not the brightest bulb in the box and maybe I'm being fanatic about tznius, but my first thought is that I'm bothered at a breach in what has been an acceptable standard in Lakewood and many other communities.
And yes, while I will never dare say I'm perfect, I do believe my knees are always covered and my tops don't lift to show my skin. But you're absolutely right that we don't need kitrugim and I shouldn't judge.

amother

↑ Plum ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 10:27 am

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

As an aside, if your Rav says there's no minhag hamakom in Monsey (which makes perfect sense considering the diversity, not that he needs my haskama), what is his psak for you about covering legs?

His psak was that I may go around without covering my legs. But he asked as a personal favor that I try to wear stockings in public because my husband learns in his kollel, and he'd prefer the image of the kollel in general to be like that, that the wives cover their legs.

But he also stressed that it is NOT halacha and there is no minhag hamakom, and if I really want to go uncovered then its ok. And he added that because its not halacha, even if I end up covering my legs in public, I still really should not be overly concerned about it like if im at home and a man rings the bell, I dont need to make sure my legs are covered the same way I make sure my elbows and knees are. Because its not halacha, and we have no minhag hamakom.

amother

↑ Smokey ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 10:29 am

I am a chicken amother, so don't feel a need to take me seriously. But I just want to be clear.

I don't think it's my job to judge others, only to look inward. I agree with Pink Fridge that we as a community have a lot work on, even with the basics - covering knees at all times and in all positions. I have recently been mekabel to work on this, and it's been very difficult to still feel "normal" while wearing longer skirts. I struggle and hope to persevere.

When I started noticing women I admire not covering their legs I looked into the halachos to gain clarity.

Hence the awareness of minhag hamakom being established by nashim tzenuos, not nashim who are style influencers or their followers.

In my opinion, and I'm sure many will disagree, the general Lakewood/black hat community - whether you send to Bais Rivka Rochel or BOC or any other local institution - does not have female role models who are tzanua in all areas but don't cover their legs. So it is clearly not minhag hamakom for legs to be uncovered. Feel free to clarify with your own Rav what the practical halacha is for you.

In MO communities and some sefardi communities, you absolutely do find women like this, who are completely tzanua according to halacha but hold that legs can be bare. These communities are not our focus here.

We're all works in progress, but at least we can be honest about where things are coming from and ask ourselves where our own goals are. Still think I wasn't super clear; really don't want to get into LH. Oh, well.

amother

Ivory

Fri, May 17 2019, 10:31 am

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

Interestingly, my Rav holds that it's actually halacha, not a chumra or minhag hamakom at all. The aspects that are minhag hamakom are what type of tights are acceptable but to not cover at all is only in extreme situations (such as living near the equator in extreme heat etc) and requires a heter for the specific circumstances.
For me, or someone else who follows my Rav, to uncover their legs is blatantly disregarding halacha though for you or others who follow your Rav, it's simply not taking a chumra upon yourself.

amother

↑ Smokey ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 10:32 am

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

Beautiful.

Thank you for sharing this. You really didn't owe it me, but I think this was such a healthy interchange with a Rav for you to share with us.

amother

↑ Plum

Fri, May 17 2019, 10:45 am

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

Beautiful.

Thank you for sharing this. You really didn't owe it me, but I think this was such a healthy interchange with a Rav for you to share with us.

Youre welcome. I shared because I really do think people should be aware that leg covering is just not on the same plane as elbows, knees and collarbones.
Some Rabanim may hold its required, but I know many do not.
And if someone asks their Rav, and goes to a grocery store in lakewood with uncovered legs...it really shouldnt be gasp worthy.

amother

↑ Maroon ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 1:21 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

There's an asifah for the men next week.

I'm not sure if you live in Lakewood or are jyst jumping on the bandwagon, but from what I see that are quite strict with the men as well. So I'm not sure where this idea is coming from.

I do live in Lakewood and I am very bothered that every time we need a yeshuah in the community it all comes down to the length of my skirt and my shaitel. Sure, they couch it in very nice spiritual terms, and they make speeches for the men as well- but what is the takeaway from both sets of speeches? Skirts and shaitels

↑ Mommyg8

Fri, May 17 2019, 2:56 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

Do you really think that all they talk to the men about is skirts and shaitels? I'm pretty sure they focus on issues - that are only relevant to men - as well.

I didnt yet hear the speech so I can't comment on how it was presented, but I have boys and I know that there is plenty plenty that is geared towards only the men.

amother

↑ Maroon

Fri, May 17 2019, 3:50 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Yes they talk to the men about shemiras einayim and technology etc the same as for the women but the takeaway is always on the women, bec it's our fault and we need to fix this. Usually, after the big asifah there will be a smaller speech going around titled "chizuk for the women" or some such given by a man of course

amother

↑ Smokey

Fri, May 17 2019, 5:05 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

So nu, maybe we can all finally fix our skirts and shaitels already.

So curious what the next topic will be; it seems this is the only way to find out. Tongue Out

Whaddaya say, chevreh?

amother

Taupe

Fri, May 17 2019, 6:13 pm

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

So nu, maybe we can all finally fix our skirts and shaitels already.

So curious what the next topic will be; it seems this is the only way to find out. Tongue Out

Whaddaya say, chevreh?

I'm not curious at all. I know it will be something else that we women do wrong. It's so much easier to point fingers than look internally at themselves.