Shabbat I find that sad. That's what children see. what mommy and daddy do. We talk so much about chinuch, good Jewish education. How much tuition costs, especially in America, how people have to ask for tuition breaks, how impossible it is these days to send four kids to yeshiva at the prices that exist etc.
it's a real problem. I'm not negating or mocking it chas vesholom.
But chinuch begins first and foremost at home. Not seeing what one learns in school carried out at home is a real problem. And good Jewish schooling teaches the centrality of torah actions but also of plain ordinary Limud Torah in daily life! Daily! Not weekly, daily.
Im sorry, but just because someone has a rich Jewish upbringing but it is not like yours, does not in any way shape or form mean that a.it is sad or b.it is lacking. I feel like I had a wonderful jewish upbringing. My parents, to me, are my role models, truly ( I wrote them a letter saying just that). I have wonderful memories of coming home from shul and my father would be around the dinning room table with about 4 other men learning. And every sunday my father would have his chavruta come over to learn for about 2 hours. I remember those things and they are etched in my memory. Forever. Why is this lacking just because it is not every day? To me THAT is sad.
I have to say that I NEVER learned that learning torah was specifically daily. I learned that toarh learning was important. Sofe Pasuk.
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Why is a woman who comes home from a full time job and a commute who is "wiped" expected to then take care of her kids, give supper, wash the kids and put them to bed? And this is if she has a full time maid taking care of the house! What would anyone say if a woman would say "I am wiped, I just cant find it in me to shower the kids or even feed them. All I want to do is chill out in front of the TV or sleep".
Yeah well. too bad. It's not on the cards unless you can afford a full time housekeeper and childminded. So go get an au pair. I don't know of too many people who have them here, including full time working mothers. It just goes with the territory. And you know what? No matter how exhausted we are, we find the strength not only to serve supper but to smile at our kids, listen to them, wash them, put them in to pjs and sit and talk with them (or as other mothers than I do, read to them) and only then...when that is all over and the supper dishes are washed and a few other things do we then "collapse in front of the TV or go to sleep".
In my world, a woman or man (yes, even the man can be the one to have to do this) is "expected" to do the supper, wash and all that only when a child is not able to do it (ie: too young) once a child is old enough to get dinner together, they can be in charge of that. Where does it say that the ema or abba for that matter HAVE TO be the ones getting that together? And washing and putting them to sleep? Im sorry but that is again, for young children. At some point, children are doing this on their own. There might be new things that have to be done then, like help with homework.
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Same in my book for men. Unless they are doing physical labor and are literally physically falling off their feet (although the men I do who do physical labor even at 50 were in such good shape that they davka didn't come home falling off their feet!) there is no reason they can't open up a sefer at home and learn at least daf yomi for half an hour a day.
Learning is NOT like reading the newspaper. It takes time and effort and for some men it is very hard to do that after a long day or work.
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If they have "no inclination"? That's really sad. As EvenI wrote (Even! We finally agree on something!) the yetzer horo works hard at trying to keep men from limud torah. So you have to push yourself. I have seen my husband yawning away but finishing a sugyia, pushing himself for torah. I saw my father who worked long hours do the same. It's how we were taught, it's surely what my father was lucky to see his father and his father's father do as well. And it's how we teach our kids. By example.
Oh please, enough of the learning by example. Some children get things on their own and others learn from example. So, I mentioned how much my father learned. My brother on the other hand learns every chance he gets. So, gasp, he did not learn from example?????????/ I think not. I think he got all positive things from home, even though my father learned only twice a week or so.
Ruchel I never wrote that a man has to spend ALL his time not at work and not sleeping learning torah! I wrote specifically that he should be kovei itim daily, either with a chavrusa, or at home alone or going to a shiur outside the house. I never said he should skip eating with his family but rather that instead of taking on domestic chores alongside his wife, it is good if the wife takes it on herself in order to free him then to go and learn. That doesn't include being with the children which I specifically said a man should do, fahering them daily about their studies, and helping to clean off the table etc.
No Ruchel I really don't know women who would put things in the microwave to serve for supper. First when I got married there WAS no microwave yet (I'm OLD remember?), if you didn't wash your kids daily here in the middle east, at least profunctorally, they would be filthy! This is a country where kids go around barefoot sometimes in the park as well!. And although I never read to my kids there wasn't a night that I didn't talk to each one of them, at least a bit, about their day. If I was sick it was really short, if I had clients waiting they knew there was a deadline, but food, wash and even five minutes talk was done always.
And I still think that even if a man has no great inclination to learn a good wife can gently nudge him in that direction by saying "Chaimkeh, I'll wash the kids and wash the dishes, why don't you open a sefer for a little while and learn a bit at the table, it'll be good for the kids to see you learn and after that maybe if I have koyach I'll start baking that chocolate cake with special frosting that you like...if you learn long enough the cake will be out of the oven and we can have some even hot!"
Or it can backfire in your face and he can be offended that you are treating him like a little kid (happened to a friend. her husband was so upset that he thought he could be coxed like that. It was a long time after that that a sefer was opened in that home)
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I have seen women do this. I don't have to B"h. But sometimes when I hear of things my husband is doing or learning or teaching it makes me so happy that I just want to do something special and extra for him, even if I don't have the koyach at all. As Even I wrote, it is our sachar! it is our olam habo! So why shouldn't I make it extra sweet for my husband?
I have to agree with ruchel here. Have you never been so tired FS that you can not move one iota? There is a time in many people's day where it is just impossible to move. Ill tell you an example. I was packing today, from the morning until my husband came home from work. It was physically draining work. After we had supper, I fell on to the couch and did not move. I had no kochot left at all. It really does happen to many women, maybe you are a lucky one who always has a little bit of kochot left, but not all women are like that.
instead of taking on domestic chores alongside his wife, it is good if the wife takes it on herself in order to free him then to go and learn.
If he can "just" learn 2 hours, for example, how does it translate into needing to do this? and even bigger question from me, how does it translate into doing almost all the chores as you describe?
Five minute talk, of course it gets done.
In pre microwave time, it could be cereals in milk. Bread butter and cold meat (for non jews!) or breat butter and jelly. Cholocate milk and sweet bread. Many mothers, even non working, sometimes did it in my mother's times.
Today, many people use the microwave a lot... especially working parents.
Ditto HindaRochel...
or let's go back to making people strong by letting the weaker ones die before adulthood. Sad but efficient.
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or diaper babies or make sponga. That means that they didn't put the torah they learned into practice?
when something somewhere isn't on the radar, it's not on the radar
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to create a torah household one has to have personal examples.
Yup, hence helping his wife a lot. If we should help strangers, we should help a person we committed to treat better than ourselves. Men who run after strangers to invite them or whatever, but don't touch a chore, make me laugh.
Where did you learn that a man putting Torah into practice means helping his wife? Of course there is a mitzva of chessed, and a man who let his wife collapse in a heap while he learned another blatt gemorra is, of course, missing the point.
But you have stressed this over and over again - men have to help their wives "a lot".
Can't you see how much help a wife needs depends on the individual circumstances of the couple? What if a woman has 25 servants? Should her husband still wash the dishes on principle? What if she has no household help but she manages fine herself because she has fewer or older children and/or is a SAHM and/or is well organized and/or works quickly and/or wants her husband to learn?
You, and some other posters here, have made it into a quasi-religion - their husband will help whatever. Whatever the temporary or permanent situation at home. I promise you I know women whose husbands don't lift a finger at home because they are out EARNING LOTS OF MONEY - and the wives wouldn't have it any other way.
Putting the Torah into practice means 101 things - keeping Shabbos, working on middos, being careful on kashrus no matter where you are, putting up mezuzos in your house and all the rest of the mitzvos. You make it sound like the only mitzva in the Torah is "Thou shall help thy wife whether or not she needs the help".
We daven every morning "Avinu, Av Harahaman... v'sen belibenu bina u'haskel lishmoa, lilmod, ule'lamed, lishmor, ula'asos es kol divrei Talmud Torasecha be'ahava" - Our Father, Merciful Father.. put in our hearts to listen, to learn, and to teach, to keep, and do all the words of Your Torah in love.
Not just doing. But learning and teaching.
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Priorities differ according to hashkafot. Torah is bigger than us, but it is davka a Torah of life, and some schedules described are not life, or at least not decent life for many women (most women I know, plus some on here?).
There is a mitzva of 'vedibarta bam, beshivtecha beveisecha, u'velechsecha baderech, uveshochbecha, u'vekumecha". Why is someone absolved from this mitzva? No, there are no hashkafot which say any Torah mitzva depends on people's schedules.
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If a family decides together to share chores, that doesn't give a man a ptor from limud torah daily. Therefore it is chessed for a wife to take on more than her husband to free some or most of his time from the domestic so that he can learn.
I don't see the link. First sentence, except emergency, sure. Second sentence, to me, no way with little kids. Not for the wife to make free time for the husband's mitsva, and certainly not most of his time at home! If his rav rules he needs to learn 5 hours a day, well, that's for him to find a way without putting it on the wife. How could he even learn with a free mind knowing what he causes??
Why would a rav say a man has to learn x hours a day? He might say - Yankel, as things are right now at home, you should be helping your wife give the children supper and put them to bed, until she feels stronger. But you are implying that there is some magic formula which is the same whether a man is in kolel or an intern working 24 hour shifts.
BTW, feel free not to answer if this is too personal, but if you are so into a man's learning Torah being minimal - meaning, once he's reached x hours a day he has no obligation to learn, regardless of his circumstance, why is your dh in kolel? (I understand that maybe he feels differently and it is his choice.)
Where did you learn that a man putting Torah into practice means helping his wife?
Helping your fellow Jew translates into helping your wife too.
And also just mentschlishkeit.
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Can't you see how much help a wife needs depends on the individual circumstances of the couple?
I said it myself. Still generally there are many things to do and few servants.
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I promise you I know women whose husbands don't lift a finger at home because they are out EARNING LOTS OF MONEY - and the wives wouldn't have it any other way.
If you have a full time maid you don't need any husband help.
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Putting the Torah into practice means 101 things - keeping Shabbos, working on middos, being careful on kashrus no matter where you are, putting up mezuzos in your house and all the rest of the mitzvos. You make it sound like the only mitzva in the Torah is "Thou shall help thy wife whether or not she needs the help".
You read stuff I don't write?
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No, there are no hashkafot which say any Torah mitzva depends on people's schedules.
I don't know any rav who will say a non working man can get away with learning as few as a man working 70 hours a week. So YES.
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you are implying that there is some magic formula which is the same whether a man is in kolel or an intern working 24 hour shifts.
And again you read the opposite of what I wrote. It is ALL INDIVIDUAL. Yes rabbanim say it.
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BTW, feel free not to answer if this is too personal, but if you are so into a man's learning Torah being minimal - meaning, once he's reached x hours a day he has no obligation to learn
I don't see the link. I mamash don't get this. Why is it a problem that Yankel has to learn 1 hour but he can do 2 so he does? Or Yosef has to learn 2 hours but he can 3 so he does? BH my husband almost always learned more than he had to.
It is not a problem for me (on contrary) that he is on kollel, it also not affecting family life, so why on earth not? He also learned most of the day, at home, for months, when we lived OOT. It was great. But when he worked FT, he still had to help (yes, a lot, as I don't have servants) and also learn what HE had to (and generally managed more).
FS, when I am working full time, there are some nights where dinner is some instant thing from the freezer, kids don't get a bath and once they are asleep I plop down to watch TV. It absolutely happens.
Shalhevet,
Even if I had 140 maids, I would still want both me and my husband to do some chore around the house. I do think its important to be partially responsible for yourself, even if you have hired hands. Obviously, it would be a lot less significant than now.
א [ח] כל איש מישראל, חייב בתלמוד תורה: בין עני בין עשיר, בין שלם בגופו בין בעל ייסורין, בין בחור בין שהיה זקן גדול שתשש כוחו, אפילו עני המחזר על הפתחים, ואפילו בעל אישה ובנים--חייב לקבוע לו זמן לתלמוד תורה ביום ובלילה, שנאמר "והגית בו יומם ולילה" (יהושוע א,ח).
יב [ט] גדולי חכמי ישראל--היה מהם חוטבי עצים ומהם שואבי מים, ומהם סומין. ואף על פי כן היו עוסקין בתורה, ביום ובלילה; והם מכלל מעתיקי השמועה, איש מפי איש מפי משה רבנו.
יג [י] עד אימתיי חייב אדם ללמוד תורה--עד יום מותו, שנאמר "ופן יסורו מלבבך, כול, ימי חייך" (דברים ד,ט); וכל זמן שלא יעסוק בלימוד, הוא שוכח. [יא] וחייב לשלש את זמן למידתו: שליש בתורה שבכתב; ושליש בתורה שבעל פה; ושליש יבין וישכיל אחרית דבר מראשיתו, ויוציא דבר מדבר, וידמה דבר לדבר, וידין במידות שהתורה נדרשת בהן עד שיידע היאך הוא עיקר המידות והיאך יוציא האסור והמותר וכיוצא בהן מדברים שלמד מפי השמועה--ועניין זה, הוא הנקרא תלמוד.
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[11] Every Jewish man is obligated to learn Torah: whether he is poor, whether he is rich, whether whole in his body, whether someone who is suffering, whether he is young, or whether he is old with no strength, even a pauper who collects charity, and even if he has a wife and children - he is obligated to fix a time to learn Torah, at day and at night, as it says (Joshua 1:8) 'and you shall study it day and night'
[12] The greatest scholars of Israel - some were wood choppers and some were water drawers, and some were blind. And even so they occupied themselves with Torah, by day and night. And they are included in those who passed on what they heard, from one to another, from Moshe Rabbenu.
[13] Until when is a person obligated to learn Torah? Until the day of his death, as it says (Devarim 4,9) 'and lest it turn from your heart, all the days of your life'. And all the time he doesn't learn, he forgets. And a person must divided his learning time into three; a third in the written Torah, and a 1/3 in the Oral Torah, and a 1/3 he will understand the end from the beginning, and understand one thing from another, and compare one thing to another, and discuss the principles by which the Torah is derived...
OK, here is the thing. Just like you all who are saying that children learn by example, so seeing abba learning is of utmost importance, well, I see the fact that seeing abba with the household chores just as important if not more.
Children who do not see both parents doing things in the household assume that that parent does not have to do anything at home thereby making them think that when they are older they will also not have to do any household chores. Trust me on this one. I have seen it first hand. It is so sad.
The best household that I have ever been at was a very shtark DL family in a neighborhood in yerushaliyim. There was one girl and a LOT of boys. The children were all made to help out. The parents did nothing. They sat back and were served. But the children had to see the example of boys getting up to help, otherwise, where would they have gotten the idea to help b'chlal? So, yes, I think that it is very important for BOTH parents to do things in the house.
A good source to bring to one's rav. Not a way to pasken for oneself.
There are men who can't read Hebrew. There are men who have attention disorders and a tape is better for them. There are very fresh BTs who need to start with every day life stuff so they don't sin.
Personally, by me, chores are not beshitta. Whatever needs to be done, gets done. If we had servants we wouldn't do anything
If something is urgent, whoever sees it, does it, unless there is a physical hardship (if one of them is too short, or can't carry, etc). But chores that are planned? they should be shared fairly (it includes also taking into account if one of the two is always doing the urgent stuff). Fairly can mean many things, but in my book it doesn't mean a healthy spouse gets to escape most of it, especially not to learn more than "his" kovea itim (in my world, not all men "have" to learn the same level, time, things etc and yes it is very much a personal shaila, and the answer will also change with job etc, yes rabbis have told me or DH that). And if the spouse is exhausted, even kovea itim can be skipped one day and made up for after (common sense, but if it needs sources, derech eretz etc). BH I must say, this hasn't happened often by us even though I've had more than my share of health problems.
I'm pretty stubborn, I guess. Everyone could tell me I'm wrong, if my rav thinks I'm right, in my book I'm right. My DH always did what he had to (by his rav who is btw Litvish), generally more. So why would I want to take on others' practices? Beshitta I don't take on foreign things.
OK, here is the thing. Just like you all who are saying that children learn by example, so seeing abba learning is of utmost importance, well, I see the fact that seeing abba with the household chores just as important if not more.
Children who do not see both parents doing things in the household assume that that parent does not have to do anything at home thereby making them think that when they are older they will also not have to do any household chores. Trust me on this one. I have seen it first hand. It is so sad.
The best household that I have ever been at was a very shtark DL family in a neighborhood in yerushaliyim. There was one girl and a LOT of boys. The children were all made to help out. The parents did nothing. They sat back and were served. But the children had to see the example of boys getting up to help, otherwise, where would they have gotten the idea to help b'chlal? So, yes, I think that it is very important for BOTH parents to do things in the house.
QUESTION: why are so many of you defending yourselves? What works for you, works for you & Kol Hakovod. Stuff the naysayers! They're probably jealous/resentful so it suits them to belittle your lifestyles. Don't let them p*** you off.
Bubby you are right. It's my problem, I have a hard time with people who push their customs or their rabbanim on others, or belittle other shittas, and always hope to make them understand 70 panim la Torah, asseh lecha rav and other things they don't like! lol
Shabbat, it's definitely a matter if prioritizing. My husband comes home wiped every night but wouldnt miss davening maariv with a minyan. Its followed by a short chavrusa. And aftwe that he usuallu has a simcha ir two to attend, and even run to the grocery to get me something... Its all a matter of what youre used to.
Men can and should help out erev Shabbos, even if they don't the rest of the week. The food will taste better too. But as the famous story goes, "pick up a broom". Or the rav who came to the house to take out the garbage, another great famous story.
It enhances a marriage and brings bracha if the man is animated by something Torahdik, on a consistent basis. Maybe he doesn't have a head, or the menuchas hanefesh for something serious. There are tapes, MP3s, etc. - a lot of ways for people to keep a connection, even though there is definitely great value in the yegia angle.
My husband has at times mentioned that yeah, it is hard, that yetzer hara thing. Recently I told him how much I admire his having pushed himself one night, knowing how tired he's been and how early he has to get up (3 cheers for Dirshu!) and he just looked at me: "But it's fun!" B"H most of the time, there is love of learning and geshmak. It's really great to be part of.
Though Friedasima, I do love your suggestion to get an au pair. No, I think I'll just send the kids to camp to make my life easier to make it easier to kick him out to learning...which brings us back somewhere close to the start of that Moebius strip this thread has become...
The longer this (current) debate goes on, the more it seems to me that people are more or less talking about the same thing - learning when possible, helping at home when necessary.
When my dh is helping around the house, it's often because I'm working, so there's really no way around that (short of changing jobs, I suppose). Scrubbing all the floors myself wouldn't mean that he can go do his own thing in the evening if I'm working and the kids are home.
Personally I see it as just an extension of work. A woman whose husband has a 10-hour work day and 1-hour commute doesn't feel like it's her fault that he can't learn during those 12 hours. So if my dh has an 8-hour work day, but then has to help out at home for a few hours, it's like a 12-hour work day. His help is necessary for financial reasons (whether directly, because I'm working, or indirectly, because I need a certain amount of sleep in order to function or whatever else), not stam. Just because the "work" that he needs to do at that point is with his own family and not in an office, doesn't make it any less real.
I disagree that seeing a father do chores is as important as seeing him learn Torah. IMO it would be bad chinuch for a child to see his father do nothing but learn while the mother and/or household suffers, then it could chv"s seem to the child that Torah means neglecting your family.
But if the mother is willing to give up her husband's help, and the household is reasonably well-run even without his help, then there's no detriment at all to seeing him spend his free time learning, on the contrary.
I don't think it can be compared to a situation where a man isn't doing housework and also isn't learning Torah. In that case, the child could get the impression that the father isn't doing housework because it's beneath him, or because men shouldn't have to do that kind of thing. But if the man is studying Torah, the child will understand that he's not avoiding housework for the sake of avoiding housework, but rather, engaging in a no less important kind of work.
I agree that even if a man doesn't learn Torah regularly for whatever reason, he can still pass on a love of Torah to his children. I think it will be harder, but as long as his reason is something like genuine exhaustion, or difficulty learning, etc, and not just that he secretly doesn't see it as very important - I think it's still entirely possible.
First, doesn't it say "vehogiso bom yomam valayla"? As per when someone is supposed to learn torah.
Second, we aren't saying (Shal, myself, EvenI, Pink - wow does that make me a wannabe charedi?) that men shouldn't help out under certain circumstances and especially erev shabbos, but rather the question is how much and in place of what and what are the priorities.
The way I was taught, the way I saw it at home, the way I do it, the way my teachers taught me, there is a woman's sphere and a man's sphere. Both may work for a living but when coming home, the domestic is basically the woman's sphere and the limud torah and religious chinuch of his children the man's sphere. If a woman needs help in her sphere she can either outsource for money or if there is no money ask her husband for help, but she should be aware that by asking she is taking away time from his limud torah or his resting to have strength for limud torah.
Yeah I know that doesn't sound like MO feminism but if you have been reading me for the umpenteenth time, I'm not a feminist, I don't push women's minyanim, I don't go to them and if someone wants it, geh gezint a heit, I'm not going to stop you, but I'm sure not going to take away from my husband's limud torah for that reason.
So it's more like, when you are about to ask your husband for help, ask yourself first if you really need it, or can do with a bit of a push do it on your own so that he can use that time to learn.
Shabbat, you are backtracking, First you say that your father only learned on Shabbos for two hours. Then you add on that he learned more hours. Then you say that he also learned during the week. But that's not what you had written in your original post. And when you write that you think it's enough for a man to learn once a week to be an example to his children and particularly his sons, I find that sad, which is what I was referring to. Now you say it isn't once a week, it's more. So that changes it obviously.
A shtark family where the kids do things is nice, but that has nothing to do with limud torah. And sometimes, like with us, we have such a small kitchen that only one person can be there comfortably at once. So it's not a question of a whole family pitching in at once.
My kids certainly helped out with each other but no, I did not expect them to make supper. I have a menu plan and it works for the week. There wasn't much "new" to make. Sure one of the girls could make a salad when she got older (why girl? Because by the time the boys were able to do it, they were having really long school hours and coming home after dinner time) but as for washing up dishes during the week? I would rather that they watched their younger siblings while I washed the dishes. They were very helpful always with each other, that was a blessing.
The whole issue once again is priorities. And many of you are writing that you think it's really important for children to see fathers doing housework otherwise they won't believe that the fathers are part of the household. I don't buy that. The father is the HEAD of the household which is why children should get up when the father enters the room. Heck I get up when my DH enters the room, including when it's only us. That is giving kovod. He gets up when I come in from the outside as well. Always. Giving me kovod. That's wha tI saw at home and dh saw it at my parents and we do it as well. Teaches you something!
Shabbat - exhaustion. What you are going through isn't normative. People don't pack up home every day! Boruch Hashem. Of course you are exhausted. But that isn't what you or most people feel on a daily basis!
