Frieda, the way I learned it, the woman's sphere is domestic and the man's job is to bring parnassah.... If a woman is doing a man's job - bringing parnassah - then the man can and should shoulder a bit of the woman's job - home and kids - too.... (that doesnt mean he cant go to mincha/maariv/shiur afterwards; his wife will still be continuing her domestic duties while he does his spiritual duties.)
True MB but that's what I was talking about. That a woman should ask herself even if she works full time how much help does she really need and which is more important for her, that her husband helps her more or that he takes part of that time to go and learn, just as you said.
I think men are being overly ignored in this whole debate.
Let's say a man has several young children and no money to hire household help, and his wife finds she can't cope with everything alone and needs his help at home. That's the wife's issue, not his? What, his decisions in life, or his abilities, had nothing to do with their financial situation? He wasn't there when his children were conceived? He didn't decide to get married, it just happened? Several years of marriage wasn't enough for him to realize what his wife can and can't do?
It's not all about the woman and what she "lets" or doesn't let, not all about her being "feminist" (a word that means such different things to different people) or not, or weak or strong. The husband also made choices. OK, in some cases something radically changes (eg. a woman who was formerly able to do it all gets sick and needs more help), but for the most part, these aren't things that sneak up on a man.
A man in that situation, by and large, chose that situation. Not that he wouldn't love it if his wife could do everything, and not that it isn't a big mitzva for her if she manages to somehow do everything despite it all - but it's not just her problem, or her ideology that's somehow lacking.
Ora I dont understand are you talking about a working woman? Or a SAHM? It differs. The same way that a man is part of things a woman is part of things. Sometimes one needs to reevaluate after more children are born. But sometimes there are ideologies which get in the way and one has to ask how much is a feeling of ideology and how much is actually necessity. No one said that if a wife needs help her husband shouldn't help her, but to what degree and at what cost? What should he give up? Maybe he can have a shorter learning, or find a later or shorter shiur, or give up chavrusa if it bothers to have another man at home in a crowded apartment with no privacy, and just learn on his own. But if a couple doesn't decide that learning is a priority THAT will be one of the first, if not the first thing that goes by the wayside. And that's what I was talking about. If one believes that a couple or family should strive to have boys and men using as much free time as they can learning then if you take away from it to help with domestic it will still leave a lot of time learning. If you believe that learning is reshus and not chova, then it will leave very little or no time for learning. See what I mean? Priorities.
And in my velt I hardly see people standing, no way I would want or do it.
We also dont do spheres in my home. Apart from the mitsvos we cannot do for the other (learning toivel tzitzis...) if we decide I work 50 hours/week and dh does all the housework and childcare - we can.
Yes, once dh is kovea itim I dont think extra learning is worth my doing it all. And in fact, if a man is a mentsch, he will not be able to not help.
Children wise, I want to raise dd(s) as expecting what in my world is normal, and my ds(s) as mentschen who wont think they can do a toyve and "help under certain circs" unless those circs are no FT help.
Feminism wise, read my posts and think what you want.
FS you tell people to respect your rabanim. Respect ours.
Ruchel if you have a psak from your rov saying specifically that your dh should stay home and help you around the house and learn only X hours a day and you follow it, that's fine. I do not know of any rabbonim who say that a man is totally potur during the week from limud torah unless there are very very extenuating family or health circumstances. If that is your case, so be it but otherwise, I don't see women saying "their rov" says that one should do A B or C. You asked a Rov, you have a psak, that's fine with me.
But when women say off their hearts "my dh has to be home and help me" that isn't a psak. That isn't what you are stating here. I can say I respect their decision and that of their husband but I am also saying that unless their rov is stating straight out as a psak that this is what he paskens, then it is a choice a personal choice but not from a rov and I don't have to give it religious respect, only personal respect.
fs I don't quite get what you're saying. I don't see why SAHM vs. WAHM vs. WOHM or whatever else would matter, my point was just, it's a mutual decision not just his or hers. His decisions, or the decisions he agreed to, led to "her" sphere being what it is, whether she works or not.
In my velt if someone is committed to learning and he has a job or even more a family, he will very often discuss with his rav to know clearly.
Second I am very surprised you consider someone learning daily but not all free time to be "not learning during the week". Unless it was a general you.
Ruchel you are obviously misreading me.
I will try it again.
If you Ruchel and your Dh have a psak from your rov saying that it is enough to learn X hours a day, daily, that's fine with me as your rov has taken your situation, family, health, whatever, into consideration. I respect that.
But that is not the situation with the other posters here. I did not hear them say or read them write that they went to their rabbonim and asked a shayla about this. And I am not talking about the posters who say that their husbands learn daily for ANY amount of time during the day, but rather posters who say that their husbands do NOT learn every day, even a bit. They and their husband decided this on their own. So while I respect that anyone has a RIGHT to make a personal decision, I can not say that this was a RELIGIOUS decision as you describe it in your previous post when you write "FS you tell people to respect your rabanim. Respect ours".
I DO respect YOUR (Ruchel)'s rov. But I didn't see some of the other posters who are saying how important it is for a man to help around the house and for kids to see men doing things around the house on a regular basis having asked their Rov about it. So what you write about "respect ours (rabbonim)" doesn't apply to them as they didnt ASK a rov.
Now do you understand what I meant?
Also it may be a the ideal to strive for that a wife should encourage her husband to spend as much of his waking time as he can when he isn't working or sleeping or eating, learning torah. Each couple, as so many have written, decide together what works for them.
But once again I see how few posters have said that limud torah is a big priority for them and that they would rather take on a bit more of the work and let their husbands learn during that time. And to me, that says something.
Before I reply to other posts, I will repeat what I wrote earlier: Not all frum couples/families are kovea itim. Thats all. It just is not something that is on the radar for everyone.
Gosh, when I was dating, I was specifically asked by one person trying to set me up if I wanted to a working OR a boy who was kovea itim.
The way I was taught, the way I saw it at home, the way I do it, the way my teachers taught me, there is a woman's sphere and a man's sphere. Both may work for a living but when coming home, the domestic is basically the woman's sphere and the limud torah and religious chinuch of his children the man's sphere. If a woman needs help in her sphere she can either outsource for money or if there is no money ask her husband for help, but she should be aware that by asking she is taking away time from his limud torah or his resting to have strength for limud torah.
You really learned that even if a husband AND wife both work out of the house that the home is still the wife's full domain? I am sorry but that would just not fly today or years ago for some. If both a husband and wife work, the couples who I know, both husband and wife then take on all of the household duties as well. EVERYTHING.
In the same regard, about religious chinuch, in some families, it is the wife/mother who is in charge of that. That was a side point though.
If I worked full time and my husband did as well, no, I would not take it if I had to come home and do everything and he was able to sit and enjoy a sugya of gemara. First help with what needs to be done and then enjoy a good learn.
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Shabbat, you are backtracking, First you say that your father only learned on Shabbos for two hours. Then you add on that he learned more hours. Then you say that he also learned during the week. But that's not what you had written in your original post. And when you write that you think it's enough for a man to learn once a week to be an example to his children and particularly his sons, I find that sad, which is what I was referring to. Now you say it isn't once a week, it's more. So that changes it obviously.
No, it does not change it at all. My point is that there are numerous men who do not learn every chance they can. They do other things and not just helping at home. One time a week or three, it is not all of the time.
A shtark family where the kids do things is nice, but that has nothing to do with limud torah. And sometimes, like with us, we have such a small kitchen that only one person can be there comfortably at once. So it's not a question of a whole family pitching in at once.
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My kids certainly helped out with each other but no, I did not expect them to make supper. I have a menu plan and it works for the week. There wasn't much "new" to make. Sure one of the girls could make a salad when she got older (why girl? Because by the time the boys were able to do it, they were having really long school hours and coming home after dinner time) but as for washing up dishes during the week? I would rather that they watched their younger siblings while I washed the dishes. They were very helpful always with each other, that was a blessing.
No one was expected to make supper, but we sometimes did to help our tired mother.
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The whole issue once again is priorities. And many of you are writing that you think it's really important for children to see fathers doing housework otherwise they won't believe that the fathers are part of the household. I don't buy that. The father is the HEAD of the household which is why children should get up when the father enters the room.
FS, in some households, where the fathers do nothing, you also see the boys doing nothing and it is terrible. The boys are learning from example. In other households the boys do the opposites of the father, but usually they learn from example. And I do not think that the father is THE head of the household. I think the parents together are the head of the household. Why only the father? And who is talking about getting up for the father? We were talking about helping out as seeing the father do it too.
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Shabbat - exhaustion. What you are going through isn't normative. People don't pack up home every day! Boruch Hashem. Of course you are exhausted. But that isn't what you or most people feel on a daily basis!
Fine, but it seems like there are some women on here who get very very very tired and get as tired as I said.
I think also it should be a shaila, and assume at least some of these posters have asked, but think it is so normal to discuss it that they didnt even mention it. Ladies if im wrong tell me!
Of course a rav needs to take everything into account, which is why answer may change in life.
I was told of course doing more is peaiseworthy- I was never told learning as much as possible while there are other things to do/help do is ideal. Big diff between more and as much as possible. This may be culture.
I do consider limud tora a priority and dated accordingly, left a lite mo circle where it wasnt on the radar along with other things I took on.
It seems DD sees the priority from her comments. She also sees a father is what I described in other posts. I realize I am lucky that dh never worked a horribly tiring job.
Shabbat, you don't hold that the father is the head of the family and the head of the household? That doesn't mean that the mother doesn't have an equally important role but there can't be two heads you know. So who is the head? Who is, for the children, the "final instanzia" as we say in Hebrew?
Again that doesn't mean that the father doesn't consult with the mother and if the mother is smart, it doesn't mean that she isn't the one guiding her husband in some or even all of his decisions! But at least "klapei chutz", to the outside and to the children, shouldn't the father/husband be the "head of the household" - Ba'al habayis as they say, with the wife being the Akeres Habayis, not housewife but Ikar habayis? The mainstay of the home?
And this has nothing to do with her having a full time top notch career as I do! It's just a sense of derekh eretz and form.
I learned if parents disagree kids need to follow dad unless against halacha of course.
Hopefully parents can compromise, please each other, value each other's opinion and personal strengthEs, and at least hide their diff so the kids dont take advantage of it.
My dad just wanna please my mom, still she says he is the authority at least symbolically and head of household despite she worked and he was retired.
Mama Bear, Rabbi Reisman said that he tells chasanim who are learning meaning their wives are working that since they are giving up their rights to the kesuba in that regard they'd better do what they can re the rest to the nth degree, e.g. honoring their wives.
Now we know that in this day and age it's not so simple and supplemental income is pretty important. I would still say that learning - the 5-9 sort - should be a priority. See Friedasima's posts for how one can do it.
Funny, some shadchanim ask, do you want a learning boy or a working boy who's koveia itim? Because even if you define koveia itim more liberally (set chavrusa 3x a week for an hour, a pre davening shiur one never misses, not necessarily 2-3 hours a day) it's a bracha to everyone when the men of the house do some quality learning.
And re the men not being part of this discussion (don't remember who said that, it's on p. 117, sorry, my computer's acting up so can't go there now), you're right. TROLLS, come out of hiding, we need your input!
Shabbat, you don't hold that the father is the head of the family and the head of the household? That doesn't mean that the mother doesn't have an equally important role but there can't be two heads you know. So who is the head? Who is, for the children, the "final instanzia" as we say in Hebrew?
Again that doesn't mean that the father doesn't consult with the mother and if the mother is smart, it doesn't mean that she isn't the one guiding her husband in some or even all of his decisions! But at least "klapei chutz", to the outside and to the children, shouldn't the father/husband be the "head of the household" - Ba'al habayis as they say, with the wife being the Akeres Habayis, not housewife but Ikar habayis? The mainstay of the home?
And this has nothing to do with her having a full time top notch career as I do! It's just a sense of derekh eretz and form.
FS, you always like to state your age, and here I think it's really showing (for MO/DL that is, dont know about other groups). I don't know anyone in my circles where one is the clear head over the other, even if it's only outwardly. And if I did see that in another couple I would find it weird and probably think something was off. Dh and I are very equal when it comes to chinuch or really anthing for that matter. We talk things over all the time and espeicially big decisions would never be made without the other being consulted. But even little things. Even things that one would generally put in the other's domain.
But I concider it especially important that my kids understand that we're a team and not that just one is the ultimate boss.
Shabbat, you don't hold that the father is the head of the family and the head of the household? That doesn't mean that the mother doesn't have an equally important role but there can't be two heads you know. So who is the head? Who is, for the children, the "final instanzia" as we say in Hebrew?
Again that doesn't mean that the father doesn't consult with the mother and if the mother is smart, it doesn't mean that she isn't the one guiding her husband in some or even all of his decisions! But at least "klapei chutz", to the outside and to the children, shouldn't the father/husband be the "head of the household" - Ba'al habayis as they say, with the wife being the Akeres Habayis, not housewife but Ikar habayis? The mainstay of the home?
And this has nothing to do with her having a full time top notch career as I do! It's just a sense of derekh eretz and form.
FS, you always like to state your age, and here I think it's really showing (for MO/DL that is, dont know about other groups). I don't know anyone in my circles where one is the clear head over the other, even if it's only outwardly. And if I did see that in another couple I would find it weird and probably think something was off. Dh and I are very equal when it comes to chinuch or really anthing for that matter. We talk things over all the time and espeicially big decisions would never be made without the other being consulted. But even little things. Even things that one would generally put in the other's domain.
But I concider it especially important that my kids understand that we're a team and not that just one is the ultimate boss.
DH and I each have the leadership in different areas - usually more geared towards our expertise. We work together for our common goals and that means relying on each other's strength to make decisions.
It's not "boss" but head. Big difference.
Maybe it's generational, but I can't understand what happened that makes this generation so different from all the hundreds of Jewish generations that came before it? The father is the head of the house. Period. Even if it is the nominal head. Because a child needs a head of the household and oy vavoy to a woman who has to be the head of the household if her husband is there alive and well.
Don't women these days still look to marry someone who is a bit smarter than them, a bit richer than them, a bit taller than them, and a bit older then them? It doesn't always work out that way but milechaschila isn't that darko shel olam? Do girls go on dates or ask the shadchan - find me a boy who is shorter than me, not as smart as me, and poorer than me?! Milechaschila? Sure you can find someone a head shorter than you and fall in love and that's wonderful but in the world we live in a woman always looked to look up to her husband. And a household may need a partnership to run it but nominally it needs a head. Otherwise kids get mixed up. That doesn't mean BOSS. It means final instanzia.
Doesn't ANYONE else feel like this? That the "final say" is with "daddy"?
I asked for frummer and more learned. Intelligence around mine or more. Great looks
Age, height, money, I didnt mention them. I would see case by case, it wasnt a criterion so much as long as it felt right.
But yes I wanted to admire my dh.
Dh also didnt search for a certain age, though he preferred not to young for maturity, or height though he preferred tall. Intelligent around his level or more.
In the end dh was shorter (fixed since then lol), smaller degree (iyh one day we will have same), different types of intelligence and areas of knowledge, frummer, and dh has to put up with a young less mature wife
Some think I wear the pants. Others have told me to rebel. All a question of perspective though pros have told us we are balanced and could be given as example of communication/respect. Kah
Before I reply to other posts, I will repeat what I wrote earlier: Not all frum couples/families are kovea itim. Thats all. It just is not something that is on the radar for everyone.
Gosh, when I was dating, I was specifically asked by one person trying to set me up if I wanted to a working OR a boy who was kovea itim.
I absolutely believe that not all frum men are kovea itim. As I mentioned earlier, the yetzer hara not to learn is very, very strong. But the mistake I believe they are making is in believing what they're doing is ok, according to the Torah. Being kovea itim is not optional, no matter what brand of Orthodoxy you subscribe to. You can not do it, and recognize that you are not leading the ideal lifestyle according to the Torah. But to decide it's fine. . . I don't think that's ok.
