How much learning is needed torah learning for a man? I think that we might be talking about 2 different things. Lubavitchers even single women learn CHITAS. That days chumash, tehillim and tanya (chassidus). It is broken up so that its completed every year. Plus before davening in lubavitch there is shiur, some men might not during the week but forsure before davening on shabbos.
So are you talking about learning on top of this? Or is this considered enough learning for all you ladies. This is standard for all working men in our community.
What really confuses me is when women consider torah learning for anyone but men a luxury?
That being a SAHM is a luxury?
A women resting after birth a luxury?
Covering your hair in the standard of your community a luxury?
I still dont understand how you can equate sahm and learning torah as a luxury?
as far as I know, there is no chiyuv for a woman to learn torah.
your hair has to be covered - what does your community have to do with it... what does it matter how everyone around you covers your hair. and if you are going to say you ar lubavitch and therefor must wear a shaitel - there are all kinds of shaitels, you can wear one that costs $30
where does it say in the torah that resting after birth is a must? I don't know how you can compare these things to torah.
I think that any minute that the husband has he should be learning. I personally think a working husband can learn an hour before davening in the morning and at least another hour at night before or after maariv... but I don't know exactly what their obligation is and I dont really think it's my business bec I'm a woman and don't take it upon myself to make sure the men are doing their jobs.
Wow! Sometimes a post is made just to justify being here.
The most common fallacy in Judaism: there is no chiuv for women to learn Torah.
There is no chiuv for women to learn lishma, that means for the sake of the learning only in all of our available time as there is for a man. That is the only difference. In Hilchos Taqlmud Torah we learn that the ikkar of learning is to "knowhow the deed is to be done", practical halacha for every day life. So the general assumption is that a woman needs to go to shiurim in TM, hilchos Shabbat, LH, kashrut and please don't forget tznius. That assumption is wrong.
A woman must know how to properly perform all mitzvot that she is chayav. In a practical sense concerning mitzvot applicable to all Jews today (not kohen, King or only with a Beis HaMikdash) the difference between us and the men is less than 10 mitzvot. And of course let's start at the beginning.
The first mitzva is know or have emuna in HaShem. There is disagreement in what this is but we are chayav today 24/7. What is emuna and what is its connection to knowing. Who do we have this knowledge/emuna to? #2 to believe in yichud HaShem. What is that? If you think it just means we are different than the xtians and Hindus because we have only one G-d then you have not begun to learn a mitzva d'oraisa that you are required to do (no less than Shabbos, TM or LH).
Let's keep going. The very next mitzva we are chayav is ahavat HaShem. Have you learned that one to the same extent as TM or LH. What about #4, to fear HaShem. The very least we have to understand the basic commandment. What is love or fear? Who is HaShem? How do we make ourselves love or fear HaShem as commanded?
Think about this all chared l'devar HaShem. When a girl turns 12 she is immediately, at that moment chayav to perform these 4 mitzvot 24/7. These are not z'man gramma and women are chayav. When your dd (or you yourself) turned 12 did you have any idea what you were chayav? A BM boy or girl has to know everything that is she is chayav then when they 12/13 and a day. There is no chiuv to memorize Rashis or the order of the shevatim in the midbar. This is done to fill up time to cover a major failing. FT learning can come not only at the financial expense to the tzibbur and the wife's health. But the real korban is the wife's own halachic obligations. She is also a Jew who needs to serve HaShem. No, this is a nice, holy thing to do because I and dh agreed cannot cancel the wife's obligations. HaShem has made differences because of our differences from men and roles. But some basic obligations cannot be canceled.
BTW, this slippery slope has transferred to boys (who someday will be men as well) in shitot like Zilberman and its look alikes. Lets sing all day, call it learning and the ikkar of Talmud Torah, halacha l'maaseh, is almost or totally ignored.Why do they like it so much? It is much more fun than learning to keep all the details of halacha.
Now I know why an old lady like me is in a camp thread.
The blue is true. The red is not.
There is a chiyuv to learn what to do. That is the chiyuv to learn practical halacha. That applies to both men and women equally.
There is also a chiyuv to learn for the sake of learning. That applies only to men and is certainly not mainly to learn practical halacha. It is to delve into Torah and to endeavor to understand Hashem's Torah, whether practical or not. It is an obligation incumbent on men all the time. He is permitted to do other mitzvos when there is noone else to do them and to take care of the body for as much time as it's necessary. When he has finished, he has to return to learning.
I thought twice about saying this but I can take it. The reason why girls don't know their obligations is 1) Who will teach them, their teachers didn't learn either. 2)If a girl has all of the limudei kodesh she needs how will she get all of the limud chol she needs to go to sem/college and support her dh in kollel. I don't know if all have seen it but I saw in print that a woman was created to be just a "horse and buggy" to carry her dh to his avoda of FT learning. That her avoda is insignificant. Sorry and respect to the revered who propagate this, if a woman learned she would eat a lot less ?????
I don't know where you saw this, but I take much more issue with the second sentence I bolded than the first. Had it just been the first sentence, it would have been saying that the woman's avoda is to turn herself into that horse and buggy. That is not an insignificant avoda. If one can take all of her inclinations and circumstances and fashion them, through her power of free will, into such a horse and buggy, one has surely brought nachas to one's Creator and completed one's task. All of the learning halacha to know how to do mitzvos is necessary but it doesn't add up to doing what one was created for. We were all created to contribute to eisek HaTorah, whether in the front line of actual eisek HaTorah (the men) or in our role of bringing our husbands and sons to produce it. It is all equally important and it is not a failing or a distraction.
Hey Imaonwheels. You really have to tell us your sched. and when you are working away from a computer so that we know when to expect you to show up and show us our place!
Seriously, of course women need to know dinnim and much more than men on the practical level in many cases, but they have no chiyuv of vehagisa day and night in terms of learning but rather in terms of doing. Emunas Hashem, Avodas Hashem, all basic ikarim of yahadus for both men and women, but neither have to be done for women through book learning. It is enough for them to learn it from their mothers and teachers orally even, although I do believe very much personally in women learning from texts. But they are "yotzei" if they are taught emunah without ever opening a book. Which of course throughout the ages women could be wonderful good yidden and still be illiterate while men could not.
Head of the household - no I don't believe that a household can have two heads just like I don't believe that a company can have two heads as a household IS a company. You need a "bottom line person". That doesn't mean that each adult doesn't have his and her expertiese, of course they do. And as for "how does it work", my husband is also very easygoing. He is happy with whatever he is served, I never remember him ever asking me to get him something if I was standing up and he was sitting unless he was very ill. I learned from him NOT to ask him to give me something but to make the effort to get up myself unless he was in the process of walking across the room to me and I had left something on the table that he could pick up literally "baderekh". But otherwise? Never
Respect - we give each other respect both privately and publicly.
But I make a big deal in front of the kids about their daddy since they were younger, it gives an atmosphere. He is a talmid chochom, they know that, they see how other people relate to him, he could run rings around me in kodesh, as much as I have learned. Of course I know more psychology than he does (I should hope) and he knows more chinuch, kodesh, and administration than me. In fact when I was kicked "upstairs" on my job and had to take on tons of admin I turned to him for the cliff notes of how to cope in many situations.
But a house needs one head like a company needs one person who makes the decisions. There has never been a decision where he hasn't consulted with me. And as he is an easygoing person very often it is a nominal "headship" as it goes something like "Daddy can we go to X today?" "Ask mommy, whatever mommy says, goes." Or "Mommy I need 200 shekel for X?" "First ask daddy what he thinks and then we will see".
It's not "If daddy says ok then it's ok although I feel strongly against it".
It's "let's get daddy's opinion first".
Now DADDY is smart enough (that's why I married him!) to know to look over at me first before giving an answer to know whether this is a pro forma question and I have my opinion and it should be taken into account, or whether this is a real question and I have no idea what to do or don't care and he can decide. In that sense it is definitely a joint venture. But again, nominally DADDY is the ba'al habayis and the head of the family. He sits at the head of the table and even when he isn't there I am the only one who will sit in his place and only if all the other places are taken and he isn't home. The kids won't sit there. I grew up with stories of my great uncles vying when my great grandfather came home, who would have the zechus to helping him take off his boots! So it's traditional with us, maybe that's why I don't find it a problem.
And it's also traditional that when it came to household the husband almost always deferred to the wife as she ran the domestic, even if it was he who made the official proclamation to the family about a decision. But woe to the husband who didn't consult and listen very carefully to his wife. It's not "one man one vote - I'm the man and I'm the only one who votes". But more like one voice, two parents but the voice will be his.
I'm very careful about these things. He gives the dvar torah even if I will add. When there is a family event I never speak publicly even though at work I give talks and workshops to hundreds of people at a time all over the world. My dh always pushes me to talk, he wanted me to even speak at our sheva brochos all those years ago, that was the first time and I refused. The only time I ever spoke in public at an event was this year, when I got an extremely big promotion and we made a party at work and he came, He knows many of the higher ups in my place through his own work and I asked him to speak, but I also did, for the first time in over 30 years because it was not really family but work. I also promised my mother many years ago that I would give her hesped and after 120 if I am still here I will honor that promise.
But otherwise? That's one of the ways that I honor my husband publicly as the head of the family. B"h as good a speaker as I am, he is BETTER!
Im with Even here. Someone once wrote that the man is the head but the woman is the neck. If a person has a head attached to his shoulders he can't turn it, he can't see more than straight ahead of him, he can't even see the pebble that he will trip over as it is on the ground.
A neck is as important as a head, even though the head is on top.
There is absolutely nothing insignificant in what we do as women to allow our men limud torah. Just the opposite. The bigger zechus is ours!
Kitov - back to camp for a moment, a question. The video you posted is lovely but where are the women? I'm not talking about for the older bochurim but some of those little boys were really LITTLE. They didn't look like they were more than five or six years old! Are only men taking care of them in the country? Isn't that a bit...well I don't even know what word to use but don't little boys need their mothers still at that age? At least in the evening?
I'm not used to men taking care of the physical needs of such little boys 24/7. Yes of course if they are their father, but these men are NOT their fathers. I'm asking serious questions here, not looking to bash at all.
What kind of men go into teaching three and four year old boys and wiping their tushes? In the modern religious and secular sectors it is incredibly rare to find an adult male who will work as a nursery school teacher or aide. And there, there's always the fear of perversion coming out which is why almost every mother I know would rather have their three year old sent to a morah and not to a male teacher. At five that's different of course, as there are fewer "accidents" and there are usually women around to pick up the slack with those problem little boys. But this is obviously an all male environment. Don't they miss mommy if this is sleep away camp for such little ones?
Also, all of the activities I saw could be done in a school lunchroom and in a public park. So, if it is a problem for people to afford the costs, why does this have to be done outside the city? Sure, it's nicer and it's definitely nicer to go to the King David than to the Lev Yerushalayim but sometimes when growing numbers of people can't afford it, then entire groups begin to rethink.
This has nothing to do with people who CAN afford camp. As I keep saying geh gezint a heit! But what are the percentages in the groups that mandate camp who can no longer (or could never) afford to pay? If these percentages are really growing, shouldn't something other than asking for more zedoko) be rethought?
See?! WE CAN keep the thread on track every few pages or so.
Im with Even here. Someone once wrote that the man is the head but the woman is the neck. If a person has a head attached to his shoulders he can't turn it, he can't see more than straight ahead of him, he can't even see the pebble that he will trip over as it is on the ground.
A neck is as important as a head, even though the head is on top.
There is absolutely nothing insignificant in what we do as women to allow our men limud torah. Just the opposite. The bigger zechus is ours!
I don't know if all have seen it but I saw in print that a woman was created to be just a "horse and buggy" to carry her dh to his avoda of FT learning. That her avoda is insignificant.
What the......................
So now we're horses? BROOD MARES and nothing else ????
Thank G-d my DH treats me with respect & encourages me to learn & explore. (I don't do enough, & that is my fault, certainly not his.)
Even, you and I said almost the same thing. That there is limud lishma that men are chayav and women are not. I was just pointing out that the chiyuv to learn practical halacha is chayav on men and women that is nearly identical and that the woman's chiyuv is basically truncated today by lack of knowledge and the cultural expectation that a woman will have a career or support a kollel man. Most of what has been argued here about learning is a halachic issue and not a hashkafa issue however you hold. The SA paskens in plain words to kovea itim every day. Need a heter? Special situation? That is what rabbonim are for.
I don't know if all have seen it but I saw in print that a woman was created to be just a "horse and buggy" to carry her dh to his avoda of FT learning. That her avoda is insignificant.
What the......................
So now we're horses? BROOD MARES and nothing else ????
Thank G-d my DH treats me with respect & encourages me to learn & explore. (I don't do enough, & that is my fault, certainly not his.)
Not really horses. Whoever said it said it a long time ago or is behind the times. Really, we're cars. Ask any car mechanic. "Otoh, zeh isha. You have to take care of it. Don't you ever polish it? When did you last take it for a wax..." Sometimes, you have to see things from a man's point of view.
But seriously, you are getting angry about something that someone else saw in print and took out of context. Wasted energy.
Even, you're right I'm angry. This is the kind of comment that causes the "women are second-class citizens" attitude & even though you're probably correct in saying this was from centuries ago, it "proves" the thoughts that we don't have to do anything, we're dumb & ill-educated. The fact that so many of us are extremely knowledgeable in Halacha as well as in other areas s irrelevant.
Even, you're right I'm angry. This is the kind of comment that causes the "women are second-class citizens" attitude & even though you're probably correct in saying this was from centuries ago, it "proves" the thoughts that we don't have to do anything, we're dumb & ill-educated. The fact that so many of us are extremely knowledgeable in Halacha as well as in other areas s irrelevant.
Neeeeigh!
But that's not what it means, anyway. It probably means something along the lines of what I explained in previous posts.
Its amazing, you didn't read it, do not know who I was quoting and yet you seem sure that it was taken out of context and that you know probably what was meant. I wish I could learn without even seeing the sefer like that. You see, I read it in proper context and did not want this book any more. I wish I had kept it as exhibit A. There are deot that see a woman's purpose as being here to take care of the physical necessities of her dh who is oved HaShem. And if it was so out of context why would women here who are intelligent and well educated secularly take such pride in their patur from learning and some evern their ignorance. Thus we get the idea that earning degrees and going out to work does not harm our ability to care for home, children and dh but sitting down a half hour to read a sefer inside will cause damage.
An the book was not from "centuries ago" but a quote from 200 years ago used and accepted in a relatively modern English book.
Its amazing, you didn't read it, do not know who I was quoting and yet you seem sure that it was taken out of context and that you know probably what was meant. I wish I could learn without even seeing the sefer like that. You see, I read it in proper context and did not want this book any more. I wish I had kept it as exhibit A. There are deot that see a woman's purpose as being here to take care of the physical necessities of her dh who is oved HaShem. And if it was so out of context why would women here who are intelligent and well educated secularly take such pride in their patur from learning and some evern their ignorance. Thus we get the idea that earning degrees and going out to work does not harm our ability to care for home, children and dh but sitting down a half hour to read a sefer inside will cause damage.
An the book was not from "centuries ago" but a quote from 200 years ago used and accepted in a relatively modern English book.
That's how I am reading it. The mefarshim on Bereishis say the same thing in almost the same breath as saying that women are created like men with a neshama and a guf and hence free will. It is not in contradiction to our obligations in emuna. It goes together.
I don't get the problem.
We have our avodas hashem. The men have theirs
Zachar venekeva bara osam no?
Equally created to do different things.
Wagon, shmagon, horse, BMW, mercedes.
Does that mean my husband "rides" me?
I don't even want to go there at this hour of the morning I'm too tired. Didn't sleep enough.
Maybe now people understand why I talk about being Shtark MO.
Shtark modern in terms of interface with the modern world. No problem with TV, internet, no censorship in this house in terms of books magazines etc. Just use sechel and good tasts.
And Shtark orthodox in terms of being traditional in terms of a husband being the head of a household, uncompromising in terms of kovei itim if it is not for mental or physical health not to, and so on.
Which means in some things I come off being the frummest of the frum and in others the freiist of the frei.
Aren't I lucky I found someone to marry just like me?
Its amazing, you didn't read it, do not know who I was quoting and yet you seem sure that it was taken out of context and that you know probably what was meant. I wish I could learn without even seeing the sefer like that. You see, I read it in proper context and did not want this book any more. I wish I had kept it as exhibit A. There are deot that see a woman's purpose as being here to take care of the physical necessities of her dh who is oved HaShem. And if it was so out of context why would women here who are intelligent and well educated secularly take such pride in their patur from learning and some evern their ignorance. Thus we get the idea that earning degrees and going out to work does not harm our ability to care for home, children and dh but sitting down a half hour to read a sefer inside will cause damage.
An the book was not from "centuries ago" but a quote from 200 years ago used and accepted in a relatively modern English book.
Telling us something was written in "a book" means nothing. At all. Who wrote the book? Who is the quote ascribed to? Do you know anyone who has enough money can publish a book? It is almost as stupid to quote something from "a book" as proof as those imamothers who "prove" their point by giving an internet address which turns out to be some high school student's paper or someone's blog post.
That being said, it is clear from the Torah that a woman has two purposes - one as a Jew, with her own mitzvos and emuna and knowledge and obligations, and the other as an "ezer k'negdo" helping her husband (and other men) learn Torah. There is a famous Akeidas Yitzhak on when Rahel Imenu spoke to Yaakov Avinu, saying if she doesn't have children she is like dead, and he answers harshly because she still has her other tafkid (purpose) as herself.
I don't know why you think RW schools do not equip girls for the mitzvos they need to keep - in BY they learn halachos and also Tenach and books of mussar and Jewish thought to instill emuna and hashkafa. No one is saying women shouldn't also spend some limited time learning after marriage - whether on their own, with their husbands, or at shiurim. The question is the quantity - the problem has become (in some circles) women who have good Torah knowledge going to learn instead of their husbands who have a constant chiyuv.
ImaonWheels: you are saying that women who want to marry kollel wives truncate their kodesh learning in order to go and learn a trade/career to support their husbands in kollel...as opposed to what? Women who want to marry working men who go on to learn their intense kodesh studies until they get married and their kids are born and they need to take care of their children? I have never heard of this but you are clearly alluding to something.
Guess what - in our chareidi/yeshivish circles here I see the exact opposite. The girls who go on to intense seminaries and know how to read a perush in Chumash are the girls who want to marry kollel men. And to have a learned husband - whether full time kollel or not - is to ensure that your household is being run according to halacha.
Before I reply to other posts, I will repeat what I wrote earlier: Not all frum couples/families are kovea itim. Thats all. It just is not something that is on the radar for everyone.
Gosh, when I was dating, I was specifically asked by one person trying to set me up if I wanted to a working OR a boy who was kovea itim.
I absolutely believe that not all frum men are kovea itim. As I mentioned earlier, the yetzer hara not to learn is very, very strong. But the mistake I believe they are making is in believing what they're doing is ok, according to the Torah. Being kovea itim is not optional, no matter what brand of Orthodoxy you subscribe to. You can not do it, and recognize that you are not leading the ideal lifestyle according to the Torah. But to decide it's fine. . . I don't think that's ok.
I agree with this, barring a rav telling him in his situation it's ok...
when we lived OOT there were many shomer mitsvos guys around but not one who wanted to learn regularly enough to be chavrusa. At most they learned some on shabbes. And then one told us "my ds hasn't touched a sefer since bm"...
But this is not shabbat's case.
For info there are also much "stricter" men who do not learn daily at all...
But for men who don't have the koyech to go out again, I say: why the insisting on going out? learn at home! take a sefer you like or even a mp3 or video shiur!
So for those of you who like your husband to be the "boss", how does that work in practicality?
Your husband has veto power? If not, then what do you mean?
We reffer to "tatty" for a final decision when the kids have issues or dilemmas. But issues between the two of us, does get treated on an even communicating basis.
same here, except if it's a topic one of us knows more or is more concerned. I had basically no choice in which kollel he chose, he had basically no choice in the brand of powder I wear (stupid example but yeah). We still discussed it, stam, but it was pretty much set unless the other could find a good reason not to.
My grandma used to tell her kids "wait until papa is home!!" as a threat. I discipline DD. But I know he's less lax so if it's a big deal I wait for him.
That said, everything with moderation (this depends on your culture). I know one man who had to kiss his father's ring. It did NOT teach him love and respect...
