Speech in Neemas Hachaim last night

amother

Slateblue ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 7:53 am

amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:

I live in Lakewood in a more "open minded" neighborhood. After one particularly scary event a few years back, the rav of the shul got the women together to speak. I was SURE he would speak on bein adam lchavero. He spoke on tznius. I remember thinking "not again" but truth be told he came from a differnt angle and he spoke about women gathering to get their husbands every week outside of shul dressed all shmexy etc and he really had a point. Yes we have many things we can work on and a big one is tznius ...

Yup, and there's always the women who don't stand at the side, who feel it's totally okay to stand directly by the line of the men exiting shul, so that even the men who are ultra careful with shmiras einayim end up looking at them.

amother

Maroon ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 8:17 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

I would love to see an asifah on jealousy, loshon hara, and things like this. Will it actually happen? Who knows.

You will never see it because those things apply to both genders equally and we need to make the women take the blame for all the tzaros in the world Sad

amother

Plum ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 8:29 am

amother [ Blonde ] wrote:

Just noticed in Gourmet Glatt today.. is it the new style for women not to wear stockings?
I looked around and saw quite a few ladies with bare feet!! That is soooo wrong I can't wrap my mind around it!

Of all things to harp on...you do realize most Rabannim hold its not halachically required to cover your legs?
Im yeshivish and I DO cover my legs (mainly because my social circle tends to)-but our Rav made it quite clear that it is not halachicly required at all.

This is really not "soooooooooo wrong". Seriously.

Iymnok

Fri, May 17 2019, 8:29 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

I would love to see an asifah on jealousy, loshon hara, and things like this. Will it actually happen? Who knows.

In Jerusalem fir many years now there has been a shmiras halashon asifa in both Hebrew and English on different days. It’s during the 9 days. It’s Huge.

ssss1

Fri, May 17 2019, 9:00 am

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

It's minhag hamakom, whether you need to cover legs or not. And afaik Lakewood's minhag is to cover.

amother

↑ Plum ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 9:02 am

ssss1 wrote:

It's minhag hamakom, whether you need to cover legs or not. And afaik Lakewood's minhag is to cover.

It is minhag hamakom, but as far as I know, when you have such a large diverse community, there is no real "minhag" you nust follow. Im not very familiar with lakewood but my understanding is that it has grown far past being a small town that all goes according to one Rav.

amother

Oak

Fri, May 17 2019, 9:07 am

ssss1 wrote:

It's minhag hamakom, whether you need to cover legs or not. And afaik Lakewood's minhag is to cover.

If many diverse people move in, minhag hamakom can evolve and change over the years.

Notsobusy ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 9:07 am

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

I think this is the real problem. Those of us who've been in Lakewood for a while are having a bit of culture shock with the new dress norms. But Lakewood grew very quickly from a smaller yeshiva town to a big city with all types of people. I think we have to accept that this is our new reality.

oneofakind

Fri, May 17 2019, 9:08 am

It doesn't have one Rav but a vast majority dress a certain way and it is not as diverse as Brooklyn or many out of town communities. People with bare legs do stand out and I wonder where they come.

↑ Notsobusy ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 9:10 am

oneofakind wrote:

It doesn't have one Rav but a vast majority dress a certain way and it is not as diverse as Brooklyn or many out of town communities. People with bare legs do stand out and I wonder where they come.

It really depends where you hang out and who you hang out with. If your husband is in BMG and so are all of your friends and family, and you live within walking distance of yeshiva and shop in NPGS, you probably won't see as much of it. In other areas you will see more of it and it doesn't stand out as much.

Mommyg8 ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 9:17 am

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

You will never see it because those things apply to both genders equally and we need to make the women take the blame for all the tzaros in the world Sad

There's an asifah for the men next week.

I'm not sure if you live in Lakewood or are jyst jumping on the bandwagon, but from what I see that are quite strict with the men as well. So I'm not sure where this idea is coming from.

amother

↑ Plum ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 9:20 am

oneofakind wrote:

People with bare legs do stand out and I wonder where they come.

Maybe so, but it is worth remembering that covered legs is not a halachic requirement the same way covering your collarbone is.

Women who dont cover their legs should not be viewed as not keeping hilchos tznius.

amother

Green ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 9:23 am

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

Ok. but don't blame me for viewing them as women who are breaching a standard that wasn't previously breached. Not judging (since we're all so afraid of saying that), but viewing...

amother

↑ Green ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 9:25 am

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

You will never see it because those things apply to both genders equally and we need to make the women take the blame for all the tzaros in the world Sad

I don't live in LKWD, but in my community, the men take a lot more mussar than women, a lot more responsibility, a lot more accountability. Women are left to get away with things bec. they are hormonal, work so hard, are emotional, had this that or the other in their past so we have to be understanding, etc.

amother

Smokey ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 9:29 am

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

Agreed that the amother you're quoting is overreacting (if you are sooooooo bothered, keep your eyes on your grocery list, or pray for them - don't make a big stink behind their backs).

But, as a respectful aside, many are not aware that the minhag hamakom concept comes with a caveat.

Minhag hamakom as defined by the poskim is "the minhag of the nashim tzenuos in a given area."

Meaning, if the Jewish women of a given community are otherwise careful about other aspects of Halacha and they do not cover their legs, then the minhag of that area is to have uncovered legs, and it would be OK not to wear stockings.

Minhag hamakom is not just "what everyone here does."

amother

↑ Slateblue

Fri, May 17 2019, 9:35 am

amother [ Green ] wrote:

where do you live?

amother

↑ Plum ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 9:38 am

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

Yes but youre really not saying anything different practically.
If a community becomes so diverse then you have many different nashim tzenuous, and no minhag.

For example, not sure exactly how lakewood compares, but my Rav said that Monsey is so large/diverse, it has no minhag hamakom.

amother

↑ Plum ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 9:41 am

amother [ Green ] wrote:

Ok. but don't blame me for viewing them as women who are breaching a standard that wasn't previously breached. Not judging (since we're all so afraid of saying that), but viewing...

Yeah ok. So thats like if you move to a community like williamsburg and you wear your type of stockings, someone else there may "view" you as breaching a standard that wasnt previously breached, because there they mainly wear seamed stockings.

But that still doesnt make your plain stockings so wrong, does it?

amother

↑ Smokey ↓

Fri, May 17 2019, 9:45 am

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

OK, so I will say this as a practical exercise to figure out what minhag hamakom is for each individual:

If the women in your social group are growing women, people who are careful about halacha, women who are covering their knees properly, are not trying to attract attention unnecessarily etc. And they also do not cover their legs, that would indicate that your personal minhag hamakom is not to cover legs.

And the converse is true as well.