CNN video on Satmar's that leave the fold.

↑ Estee2 ↓

Tue, Jan 24 2006, 11:31 am

Okay...this quote is mine and I admit it needs major clarification:

[/quote]"We, (personally Chabad) are HOPEFULLY MUCH more open minded than those Chassidic families their unhappy children described to the nation."

WE (all of us caring, loving mothers and wives on imamother) are hopefully much more openminded than THOSE
(specifically THOSE INDIVIDUAL parents, NOT all Satmar or any other 'group') parents/families their unhappy children described...

Basically Chana said she felt she was getting married to someone she
barely knew and she made it sound like she did not meet him much or spend the necessary amount of time with him.
IMHO, those are closeminded
parents -- to arrange this type of Shidduch
(yes, for those for whom it works, fine) for their daughter, for whom it did NOT feel right to her.

Nowhere in my text did I say that Satmars are closeminded, however,
in this girls' individual case, it SEEMS that these SPECIFIC
parents were (arranged marriage, was there communi. Now, look at the result. She is unhappy and
cannot relate to that levelof Yiddishkeit.

I did not write the second quote.
However, Chabad, unfortunately does have dropouts and unhappy teens
but, as a whole, generally I think Chabad is less insular, more into outreach, and is used to seeing,
and relating to, and educating ALL types of Jews across the world. Hopefully ALL Jews and Chassisdim are
accepting of all Jews, especially their own children, NO MATTER WHAT.
They will respond much better to love and acceptance than trying this pressure.
Being a positive role model will be the BEST response. That, they will not find in the outside world.[/quote]

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Jan 24 2006, 11:49 am

Chana's parents happen to live on my parents block and are wonderful people, they have a wonderful family of happy frum kids. I suggest that we stop judging ppl. whos children leave their way of life in pursuit for "happiness". There is nothing a parent can do to prevent this except daven and hope to hashem. There isn't a single thing one can point to and say this is what caused this (like arranged marriages - it may seem weird and hard to ppl. who don't do it but these children grew up all there life knowing this lifestyle)
It happens to the best of us Satmar, Lubavitch and the rest (my boss is from ch and once was a shluach in south Africa, he was a well known torah scholar and now doesn't keep shaboss or kosher, he left his wife and two sons for a "better life", unfortunately his younger (unmarried) brother followed his way. He has wonderful parents and grandparents (very prominent ppl)) All we can do is daven for to hashem to protect our kids, and to help those who distanced themselves find peace.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Jan 24 2006, 11:50 am

First of all, I think it's silly to keep on saying "Satmar this" and "Satmar that" when basically all Polish and Hungarian Chassidic groups have the same general approach to marriage and dating.

The "Chassidic" approach to marriage has been the same for almost all Jews throughout the generations. The concept of being in love BEFORE you get married is a more modern approach, which has slowly filtered through because the secular approach to marriage has also changed. The Jewish approach to finding a mate has pretty much always followed the same basic pattern: since the parents of a young boy/girl generally know their child best, and are less likely to be blinded by a nice smile or what have you, they do exhaustive research as to background, hashkafos, learning commitment etc. and narrow it down to candidates who are likely to appeal to their child. AFTER the research has been done, the two parties meet, and if they "click" it's a go.

It may not sound very romantic, but I don't think there is a Lashon Kodesh or Yiddish word for romance. The Torah view has always been that true love develops AFTER marriage. Even couples who have relationships which last for a long time before they decide to commit to marriage, don't really know their fiancés until they are actually living together for a while after marriage. Unfortunately too, people who have been the most charming of chasanim/kallahs can turn out to be monsters once they are married.

I think that another point may be, that in Chassidishe communities there is simply a stronger reliance on bitachon. Meaning, Hashem has set aside my bashert for me, I have to do my hishtadlus, but eventually Hashem will bring my bashert to me. Therefore there is no need to waste endless nights in fancy restaurants and hotel lobbies agonizing over the question, "Is he the one? Do I love him?" If all the research points in the right direction, and the boy and girl like each other, then apparently it is "the one."

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Tue, Jan 24 2006, 12:23 pm

amother wrote:

The concept of being in love BEFORE you get married is a more modern approach

No one advocated this. KNOWING a person before marriage was advocated, and is much different than being in love.

amother wrote:

The Jewish approach to finding a mate has pretty much always followed the same basic pattern: since the parents of a young boy/girl generally know their child best

I think that in some communities this has been/needs to be modified because of lifestyle changes. After spending a year in a foreign country for seminary and gained a certain sophistication, it didn't make sense that my parents would choose someone for me without my input.

amother wrote:

are less likely to be blinded by a nice smile or what have you

Oh, you mean how the first thing that many parents, shadchanim, etc., ask is, what does s/he look like? How much does s/he weigh? etc.???? Parents are sometimes more blinded than the kids are!

amother wrote:

and narrow it down to candidates who are likely to appeal to their child.

If they even know their child anymore, since teenagers today across the board have different relationships with their parents than they used to.

amother wrote:

AFTER the research has been done, the two parties meet, and if they "click" it's a go.

"Click" meaning they get a half an hour to affirm what the parents already decided? "Click" meaning he thinks she has a nice body? "Click" meaning what?

amother wrote:

It may not sound very romantic

This is not my concern!

amother wrote:

The Torah view has always been that true love develops AFTER marriage.

This doesn't mean that you need to go through with this sort of arrangement.

amother wrote:

Unfortunately too, people who have been the most charming of chasanim/kallahs can turn out to be monsters once they are married.

Which is why I would advocate knowing someone a bit better before marrying them, and not trusting your parents' research.

amother wrote:

I think that another point may be, that in Chassidishe communities there is simply a stronger reliance on bitachon. Meaning, Hashem has set aside my bashert for me, I have to do my hishtadlus, but eventually Hashem will bring my bashert to me.

Many Jews who are not Poilisher chassidim rely on Hashem to help with their shidduchim. That is not contradicted by speaking to a potential life partner for more than forty-five minutes.

amother wrote:

Therefore there is no need to waste endless nights in fancy restaurants and hotel lobbies agonizing over the question, "Is he the one? Do I love him?"

There is a world of space between agonizing over loving someone and deciding if he or she is the right one for you!

amother wrote:

If all the research points in the right direction, and the boy and girl like each other, then apparently it is "the one."

I don't think life is so simple:

Research + Like (like? how could they like with such pressure and so little time?) = Happy marriage

Yeah right. <sarcasm>

**Also, why was this posted anonymously?!?

goldhop ↓

Tue, Jan 24 2006, 1:10 pm

The operative word in your post, Crayon, may be "some communities." When Chassidishe Rebbes came to America after the Holocaust, they came with the dream of rebuilding their kehillos from the ashes, and did not lower their standards of frumkeit because they were in "America."

Are those "lifestyle changes" you're referring to necessarily a good thing? Or just a natural adaptation to the lower standards of the times? So then, following that train of thought, if Jews are able to maintain their standards of frumkeit without compromising to "the times," and still, blossom and thrive exponentially, wouldn't that be ideal?

Also, you seem to have some pretty skewed ideas of how couples meet in the Chassidic world. I don't think too many people are given a maximum of a half hour to decide. If they do decide after a half hour that this is the one, then who are you to vilify their choice? I don't know where you got the impression that parents would "choose someone for me without my input." Please give me some examples where you know that happened. It certainly did not happen with me.

Children in the Chassidic world tend to have an extremely close, and usually very trusting relationship with their parents, so the distance that you describe between parents and teenagers is usually not an issue as it may be elsewhere.

And yes, we cannot deny that the looks of a person play a role in the shidduch process. But parents are not likely to fall in love with a boy because of his smile or looks or whatever, as some girls might.

You obviously feel the need for sarcasm since you don't approve of this lifestyle. You really don't have to. Chassidishe Yidden follow their chosen way of life because they have Rebbes to guide them and because this is the mesorah they have received from their parents and grandparents, not because of popular approval. Overall, Chassidishe marriages tend to be happy ones, and anyways, ten years down the line, it doesn't really matter how you met. If a man and woman are bashert for each other, then this is it. No matter how "right" a couple felt their decision was during their engagement, once they get into the routine of marriage, it is the tools they bring along in midos and mentchlichkeit that will make it work.

The only things we really seem to disagree on are the amounts of hishtadlus a person should put into marriage.

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Tue, Jan 24 2006, 1:32 pm

goldhop wrote:

Are those "lifestyle changes" you're referring to necessarily a good thing?

The fact of the matter is that children generally have more freedom and exposure here than in Europe. That's just a fact.

goldhop wrote:

wouldn't that be ideal?

If it worked better than it does.

goldhop wrote:

If they do decide after a half hour that this is the one, then who are you to vilify their choice?

The key word here is "decide".

goldhop wrote:

Please give me some examples where you know that happened.

I don't feel that it's appropriate to give names out, sorry.

goldhop wrote:

Children in the Chassidic world tend to have an extremely close, and usually very trusting relationship with their parents

Except for when they don't.

goldhop wrote:

And yes, we cannot deny that the looks of a person play a role in the shidduch process. But parents are not likely to fall in love with a boy because of his smile or looks or whatever, as some girls might.

I have heard numerous references to looks, as opposed to anything of real value, sorry.

goldhop wrote:

You obviously feel the need for sarcasm since you don't approve of this lifestyle.

I am not concerned with the lifestyle. I am concerned with the kids who fall through the cracks and wind up miserable.

goldhop wrote:

You really don't have to.

Thanks for your permission. <sarcasm>

goldhop wrote:

Overall, Chassidishe marriages tend to be happy ones

How do you know? I don't know how many Chabad marriages tend to be happy ones, and I'm a Lubavitcher. I don't study these things, and I don't know how happy people are. A vague statement like yours means nothing.

goldhop wrote:

ten years down the line, it doesn't really matter how you met.

Who said it matters how anyone met? Certainly not I. What matters is how happy the couple is.

I have nothing against the system as a system, if it works. I don't know how happy or unhappy people are in this system, but I do know of a lot of things that have gone wrong and didn't have to.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Jan 24 2006, 4:00 pm

Crayon we have plenty of problems by Lubavitch too within our own system. When a child follows the ways of his community all should work out well, but when they are not happy for whatever reason and there are many, it doesn't necessarily mean they are better of with this or that community. How we as parents, teachers,neighbors etc respond to a person going through his nissoyon CAN make the world of difference. B'H I'm grateful for being Lubavitch for many reasons but I don't think when it comes to peaple going away from the derech I can be more secure then the other typs of frum yid. I see and hear of problems from all over. There are many areas that we should look at and try to improve on around us, to have a possitive affect on our children and those that we are in contact with. Lets daven that there is no more material for those who try to make it newsworthy. Lets daven that we should great Mosiach Now.

↑ goldhop ↓

Tue, Jan 24 2006, 5:47 pm

I was gonna be amother again but I outed myself by mistake Smile

(but I'm not the amother of one post before)

Crayon, you obviously know people for whom the Chassidishe dating "system" has not worked. That still does not give you the authority to say that the "system" has to be changed bec. you think it's not working. Nothing is foolproof when it comes to marriage. Divorce happens in every community, from ultra-chassidish to very modern orthodox (duh). Upping the frequency ante, and upgrading from seeing your chosson twice to meeting him ten times will not a better marriage make. You may FEEL better about it, but again, you don't really know a person until you're married to them.
So again, what it really boils down to is how much emunah and bitachon you have that Hashem will send you the right one.

The solution to scattered problems within a community has never been to reduce standards of frumkeit for the community as a whole. Mesorah is a serious thing, not to be tampered with easily.

And if any of you want to go back 110 years ago, like Estee2, well why does the chosson have to see the kallah before the badeken?
edited by mod

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Tue, Jan 24 2006, 6:10 pm

goldhop wrote:

That still does not give you the authority to say that the "system" has to be changed bec. you think it's not working.

I don't think I have authority to make changes in the Polish community, nor do I want such authority.

goldhop wrote:

Nothing is foolproof when it comes to marriage. Divorce happens in every community, from ultra-chassidish to very modern orthodox (duh).

This is true...

goldhop wrote:

Upping the frequency ante, and upgrading from seeing your chosson twice to meeting him ten times will not a better marriage make. You may FEEL better about it, but again, you don't really know a person until you're married to them.

But it might alert you to some issues that might come up. If you have one conversation, a person's judgmental nature might not come up. If you meet three or four, it's more likely, and ten to twelve, even more. I'm not advocating a specific number of dates, but I think that while of course a person does not fully know a person until after marriage, that doesn't mean that NO knowledge is ideal.

goldhop wrote:

So again, what it really boils down to is how much emunah and bitachon you have that Hashem will send you the right one.

I think this is a poor defense. You can have all the emunah, but if the guy turns out to have a quick temper, you'll need a bit more than that to solve that one.

goldhop wrote:

The solution to scattered problems within a community has never been to reduce standards of frumkeit for the community as a whole.

I did not CHV advocate reducing standards of frumkeit. What you seem to see as frumkeit, I see as potentially dangerous, willful ignorance.

goldhop wrote:

And if any of you want to go back 110 years ago, like Estee2, well why does the chosson have to see the kallah before the badeken?

What does this mean?

edited by mod

↑ goldhop ↓

Tue, Jan 24 2006, 6:34 pm

Ummmm… what "I" see as frumkeit? That a derech that is followed by thousands upon thousands of ehrliche yidden is dangerous? So you do not want to have the authority to change things in the Chassidishe community but you have the authority to label an age old hashkafah as "dangerous, willful ignorance"?! If this doesn't make you come across as smug and superior, I don't know what does.

Let me remind you, that before secular hashkafahs crept into our lives, almost ALL frum Jews had the same approach to dating and marriage.

Saying that the fact that it all boils down to emunah is a poor defense borders on not having that emunah in the first place. We all agree that Hashem prepares our bashert for us before we are even born. What each community seems to differ on, is the amount of hishtadlus required to put into it. Hishtadlus is not for us to be convinced that we are doing a wonderful job with arranging our destinies, because that is not in our hands. We are simply required to put in our own efforts and not, like the famous mashal, walk in front of a speeding car because everything is anyways bashert.

Also, I think caring parents who do exhaustive research are far more likely to discover abusive tendencies in a boy than a starry eyed girl who sees a guy ten times.

The badeken thing: Since the chachamim say that a man should see the woman he is going to marry before he marries, and not too long ago, many young men and women did not meet at all before they got married, the chassan was required to see the kallah at the badeken to make sure that he would see her before they got to the chuppah. How he would be able to back out if he wanted to I don't know!

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Tue, Jan 24 2006, 6:43 pm

goldhop wrote:

I do not think that the system in and of itself is problematic. I think that in some cases, it might be appropriate for the couple to perhaps explore less-used options (with the help of rabbonim and mashpiim) when pursuing a shidduch. That's all.

goldhop wrote:

Let me remind you, that before secular hashkafahs crept into our lives, almost ALL frum Jews had the same approach to dating and marriage.

Okay, but we can't go back in time at this point, we have to deal with the reality we have. And the reality is that we are very affected by the world around us.

goldhop wrote:

Saying that the fact that it all boils down to emunah is a poor defense borders on not having that emunah in the first place. We all agree that Hashem prepares our bashert for us before we are even born. What each community seems to differ on, is the amount of hishtadlus required to put into it. Hishtadlus is not for us to be convinced that we are doing a wonderful job with arranging our destinies, because that is not in our hands. We are simply required to put in our own efforts and not, like the famous mashal, walk in front of a speeding car because everything is anyways bashert.

I beg your pardon! I think that for some people, marrying someone after three dates is like walking in front of the speeding car. Just because you meet someone and your parents think he's nice and learns well, doesn't mean he's your bashert.

goldhop wrote:

Also, I think caring parents who do exhaustive research are far more likely to discover abusive tendencies in a boy than a starry eyed girl who sees a guy ten times.

Maybe, maybe not. I have no problem with the parents doing research. I just think that in some cases the children should have that option also.

↑ goldhop ↓

Tue, Jan 24 2006, 6:51 pm

Tell me, do you not know of any Lubavitch marriages which have failed? Lubavitch men who have turned out to be abusive? Women who are unhappy in their marriages? Do you hear anyone calling for an overhaul of the system because it's not "working"? Aren't there any smart people like you who are saying, well, apparently, going out ten times is not enough, because it's not "working." From now on, all couples must see each other for a minimum of 25 dates! And then, all potential problem cases will be weeded out of the dating pool! And all marriages will now be perfect successes!