CNN video on Satmar's that leave the fold.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Jan 24 2006, 4:00 pm

What about dating for a couple weeks (more or less) causes a lowering of frumkeit? I really don't understand what is not frum about that. And most people are not on a level to get married with pure bitachon- trusting their parent and Hashem without being logical. Being frum does not mean you should throw out your logic. When it comes to dating, it takes at least a few good meetings, maybe in different settings and different atmospheres to get to know a person at a very basic level. If only for this one reason do I think that that is exremely crucial- there are red flags that may come up only after a few meetings- anger, control issues, respect- things that can be serious indications for the future. Yes, there are people get married and wake up one day and realize they married a complete monster- but rarely if they were paying attention while dating. A lot of people didn't know what to look for, or ignored what they saw even if they didn't like it. That sounds harsh- sorry, but I think it's true. The point is dating is serious business- pwople should do it carefully. But that's only one reason. I think that marriage is a decision that only the people most affected by it should make- the chosson and kalla- the parent should not make the decision- offering advice, and help is different- and as far as I know halacha doesn't even permit this. This has nothing to do with romance and love- we are talking about the level before that- just basic getting to know you, and being able to confidantly DECIDE to get engaged and married and understand why they are doing it. (I will add there does have to be attraction, though undevelped it should be there at some level- don't even try to tell me that isn't important in a marriage) One more thing- different people are different- some people are tottaly ok with one date and engagement- kol hakavod, I don't disrespect that it works for some people. But some people need a couple weeks- some a month or too, and some longer- the point is that they should not be wasting time but taking the time they need.

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Tue, Jan 24 2006, 5:28 pm

goldhop wrote:

Tell me, do you not know of any Lubavitch marriages which have failed? Lubavitch men who have turned out to be abusive? Women who are unhappy in their marriages? Do you hear anyone calling for an overhaul of the system because it's not "working"? Aren't there any smart people like you who are saying, well, apparently, going out ten times is not enough, because it's not "working." From now on, all couples must see each other for a minimum of 25 dates! And then, all potential problem cases will be weeded out of the dating pool! And all marriages will now be perfect successes!

I think I mentioned somewhere here that I believe that everyone has problems in this area. If I didn't, I should have, because THAT is what I think about the whole thing.

It's an issue that faces Jewry in a lot of areas: people getting lost in a set system. It doesn't mean that we throw out the whole system, but parents and rabbonim and teachers and mashpiim, etc., all need to be aware that there are many in the community who should perhaps explore APPROPRIATE options that are not usually used in that community. All I'm advocating is openness to our children's diversity.

hisorerus ↓

Tue, Jan 24 2006, 5:30 pm

Quote:

there are red flags that may come up only after a few meetings- anger, control issues, respect- things that can be serious indications for the future. Yes, there are people get married and wake up one day and realize they married a complete monster- but rarely if they were paying attention while dating.

Amother, proper research (I.e. more than most of us do) will turn up more potential issues than dating someone, who is on his best behavior.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Jan 24 2006, 9:29 pm

My Goodness! The Dating system is PERFECT.
Dr. Yael must be fantasizing as well as those people writing to the Advice Columns in the Hamodia, Jewish Press, Country Yossi etc about their dating troubles. The shidduchim and marriages are so easy and perfect by those who date.
Well Just my 2 Cents. When you date the person is on his BEST Behavior and You might know his personality a little better but it's still not what he is when you are gonna live with him. And I don't care if you go out 20 times-You still don't really know him. You might know more about him or his personality but not the true HIM. So you date this great guy who has this malah and that malah and yes you couldn't be happier....Until you find out that you didn't know him quite that well, which happens only after marriage.
NOW In the non/dating world, YES we know less about the personality of our partner But every person has good things and not so good things about him. So the Dating couple gets to find out not so good things after marriage while the non-dating couple also gets to find out the not so good things about one another but at the same time as they find out the good things too!!!
And I'm going to tell you something.........Please take a chair and sit down......Maybe prepare a cup of water....................................
REady? Here it comes''
In the NON DATING world the parents do NOT, I repeat DO NOT Decide if a shidduch should be or not. (maybe there are some extreme cases but they are not the norm.) Yes they are more involved, Much more involved (which is easier on the couple IMO.) But It is the couple who decides!!!! "GASP" Yes it's the couple who decides!!!
How do I know???? Because I am one of them and so is my family and so are my friends, acquaintances, workmates, neighbors, cousins, across the street neighbors, fellow same grocery shopping mates etc. etc.
So Now start catching your breath and remember that the couple and not the parents decide!!!!!!! Very Happy

7diamonds ↓

Tue, Jan 24 2006, 9:47 pm

So true. And the most important issue here and unmentioned so far as I saw is that until the point where the couple meet at the B'Sho, the amount of research done has been so extensive-unlike other religious sects and even us Lubavitchers, where there is some research but not as much as by the ultra-chassidish. There, the research into the boy and girl and their families etc. is done meticulously and by the time the couple meet, it is only for THEM to see if they are interested in eachother as partners for life. By the way, from my experience with all my CHASSIDISHE relatives, KE"H, they are marrying, for 3 generations (that I know about), people who are so perfectly suited to them, I myself have been amazed once I get to know their new spouses.
PS: My husband and I "dated" for 3 dates and got engaged-over 20 years and 7 children ago, B"H.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Jan 24 2006, 11:24 pm

OK I can't say that I don't understand your wondering how this works out. BUT
Bear in mind that by the time a non dating couple sits down they know so much information about each other thru extensive research. I'm not saying that they know real inside info. like if he has a temper or not or if she gets upset too quickly or whatever but they do know or are made aware that this person is lively or quiet, smart, bubbly, giggly, smiley, friendly, etc. etc. And I think from dating you also don't get to know if they have the real inside of a person's personality if he's got a temper etc but just basic personality traits.
Maybe I should give you some examples like "What made me want my husband?" First of all ,of course the hand of hashem. But on our level I already knew certain things about him that I liked before meeting him. When I met him I liked the way he looked, I enjoyed his company, I thought I saw in him what I heard about him and I felt comfortable and in good company with him. Our hashkafos were on the same level basically, our goals and way of thinking too. I had seen a few boys before him and felt that he was the one I was looking for. I had ONE meeting which is usually not the case. Most couples have at least two. But I told my parents, who thought I should take it slowly or think it over at least overnight, that I have already made my decision. So here we are and I thank Hashem everyday for bringing us together. B"H ( It involved work, believe you me LOL. But it pays off, anyway that's a totally different ballgame but just wanted to point out that Hashem brings us together while we have to work to stay together. )

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Jan 24 2006, 11:30 pm

Sorry about the typo.:And I think from dating you also don't get to know if they have the real inside of a person's personality if he's got a temper etc but just basic personality traits.
Please reread it without the words IF THEY HAVE!!
it should read like this And I think from dating you also don't get to know the real inside of a person's personality if he's got a temper etc but just basic personality traits

sarahd ↓

Wed, Jan 25 2006, 12:59 am

This whole discussion is so ridiculous. If you don't like the Chassidic shidduch system, don't do it for your children. If chassidim are happy and satisfied with it, who are you to tell them they're doing it wrong? Everyone stick to the system they find works for them and please don't consider it your duty to tell others that they're messing up.

FWIW, I myself did plenty of dating, but I have many chassidish cousins who went the "Satmar" way and as amother previously wrote, the couples are so perfectly suited for each other, it just amazes me.

↑ 7diamonds

Wed, Jan 25 2006, 3:55 am

Just got back on line and saw that my previous reply ended up coming after a person who did not understand the chassidishe way of "dating" but after the previous reply.
As well, I wish to add that this discussion arose by the portrayal of a couple of young people in the Satmar video that made their going off the path their parents had educated them for (the path of Torah) and making it sound like their only and main problem was being married off to someone they did not know. To someone like me this is offensive-this not the reason they strayed!!!! They had much deeper problems that, unfortunately marriage to probably very nice people, could not change.
And as for CNN and this portrayal-well, let us just examine the statistics-
The non-religious and non-jewish world divorce rate is over 50% today with dating for looooong periods of time (even years).
The religious divorce rate-so far as I can tell-is still less than 10% B"H-and the old adage that religious couples with problems do not divorce, does not ring too true today as we have seen an increase in young divorce couples, but still not what it is in the secular world. Our divorces are happening more frequently because these young people have been exposed to the ideas of "ROMANCE" and "HE LOVES ME/HE LOVES ME NOT" and expect flowers and rainbows from the beginning and those of us married 10 or 20 years etc. know that is just plain unrealistic. So, in conclusion, you don't know someone well enough until your married, but if even from one date you think he is a good person and will make a good husband, he probably will-you just both have to work at it and enjoy what you liked in eachother.
There, I have said my piece. LOL

↑ lucky ↓

Wed, Jan 25 2006, 5:15 am

Shiduchim have changed all over. Even in communities where parents do the choosing/research, Kids today, have more of a word in what they are looking for. 15 yrs ago, it would never occur to me,(nor my friends) to say no to a shidduch. But today the kids do say what they want.

In the non-dating circles, Most of the time it depends on the parents. There are parents who don't care much. The shadchan tells a shidduch, they like the family, kids talk once, ta da! engaged. These parents feel that these 18 yr olds can't make decisions for themselves.
Other parents make sure that their kid wants the shidduch before doing it.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jan 25 2006, 5:43 am

hisorerus wrote:

Quote:

Amother, proper research (I.e. more than most of us do) will turn up more potential issues than dating someone, who is on his best behavior.

have you ever dated?

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jan 25 2006, 5:54 am

Continueing from above, dating is just being logical about the shidduch- giving it thopurough consideration. Many times things come up in person that no one would or could tell you. I am not saying no one can date the typical chassidish way. I am just saying that maybe they should allow people more time if they feel they need it. and yes, this would not be the only cause of going off, but it could be a big thing. And for those people it could signify in general that the chassidish life is not working for them- that they cannot handle the strict rules in general. I don't know if this makes sense- but maybe they would be more comfortable in a less strict frumkeit. It's just so sad if they feel they need to leave it all.

↑ lucky

Wed, Jan 25 2006, 6:49 am

amother wrote:

I am not saying no one can date the typical chassidish way. I am just saying that maybe they should allow people more time if they feel they need it. .

There is no RULE in the community as to how many times you can see someone. For some, once is emnough. I know of some who had 3-4 beshows. The key is that the parents should have an open comunication with their child.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jan 25 2006, 7:01 am

My parents did not ask me if I was ready to get married. I was called home from work one day to meet a boy and the rest is history. I was 18 yrs old. The one question that my father had asked me was if I had any objections to someone who was not as slim as I am. Even if I was asked what I wanted, I wouldn't know.

Nowadays, it doesn't work this way. The girls and boys are more enlightened. They know what they want, and the parents let them say their opinions.

Do you think it is easy for a parent to do a shidduch for their child? It is countless days (and sleepless nights) of davening and asking hashem to guide us in the right direction so we can do what is best for our child.

↑ hisorerus

Wed, Jan 25 2006, 7:22 am

amother wrote:

hisorerus wrote:

Quote:

Amother, proper research (I.e. more than most of us do) will turn up more potential issues than dating someone, who is on his best behavior.

have you ever dated?

Yes, have you?

↑ goldhop ↓

Wed, Jan 25 2006, 7:23 am

Quote:

Continueing from above, dating is just being logical about the shidduch- giving it thopurough consideration. Many times things come up in person that no one would or could tell you.

It's funny that you're saying that dating is all about being logical, when parents are much more likely to make logical choices than a boy/girl who is emotionally involved. (Choices, not decisions)

I'd like to stress yet again, that from a Torahdik point of view, the way dating is viewed in the Chassidish world, is probably closer to the ideal. Never before in Jewish history has it been accepted that boys and girls run about town in their quest to find their bashert. Not to mention the burnout that happens after you run about town for a few fruitless years in a row. You may say that it is absolutely necessary for some communities, but that does not make it ideal. If anything it is an accomodation to the weakness of the generation and admitting that the secular ideas of personal autonomy in finding a mate have filtered through to us.

From my friends in the non-Chassidish world, I often hear the opposite side of the coin. That their parents don't do much research at all. If the guy wears pants and went to the appropriate yeshivah, then presto! it's a date! It's left to the girl to do all the digging and finding out, which I think is incredibly stressful for a young girl. Many girls get set up endlessly with guys who are wholly inappropriate for them, and many go through years of hopeless dating. The "older singles crisis" as it is currently called, is not by any means a crisis in the Chassidish community. You just don't see exhausted burned out 30'somethings shlepping through their days on their way to their third grade teaching jobs in Chassidishe communities.

So if you think it doesn't work for you, fine. No one is doing any proselytising here. But, hands off our mesorah!

southernbubby ↓

Wed, Jan 25 2006, 8:12 am

As a Lubavitcher with a shidduch age daughter, I also have my share of complaints! Most of the shadchanim have few names to offer and know very little about the few people that they have to suggest. This only applies when the shadchan or shadchanit answers the phone! They are very hard to reach. Prepaying them does not yield better results. If the other Chassidishe groups have shadchanim that can be employed to gather information about singles and their families so that they can make suggestions, where can we sign up for lessons? I see many girls (and plenty of boys) who grow older without finding their bashert. While there is no shame in marrying at an older age, it must be painful for many singles and families to have to wait so long. As people grow older, they are often harder to please, so it becomes more difficult. Some older singles "settle" for something that they were not really interested in before. Chassidishe families who encourage early marriage may be avoiding these problems.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jan 25 2006, 8:39 am

Quote:

that they cannot handle the strict rules in general. I don't know if this makes sense- but maybe they would be more comfortable in a less strict frumkeit

Other amother who wrote this what is it supposed to mean?? Do you think Chassidim have more strict rules than Litvishe people?? I don't think the Chassidishe life can be classified as Strict Rules. We all have the same rules to keep and I don't see where the Chassidim have stricter rules.