Inviting not yet Frum Guests to Your Home

↑ Motek ↓

Tue, Dec 14 2004, 3:34 pm

how come an irreligious Jew who is invited to Japanese friends will be very willing to comply when she is asked to remove her shoes outside the door (and the Japanese will have no qualms about asking her), but the same irreligious Jew, if asked to cover up when dressed not tzniusdik'ly will get offended?

can I get a rational explanation for this?

↑ Tefila ↓

Tue, Dec 14 2004, 3:35 pm

Hey, talking behind my back Wink

Listen maybe I wasn't clear I don't tell them to come in skirts down to the ground or high neck tops. But just dress modestly and if they want details I will give it. However if someone comes to speak to my husband etc in MY home and has very LOW cleavage etc then yes I will offer or more coax her to eigther wear a sweater, jacket or my top!

↑ zuncompany ↓

Tue, Dec 14 2004, 11:32 pm

Motek, I don't know how rational this is cause my husband says I don't know what rational is! (When you are preg or ppd for more than two years straight rational is thrown out the door!)

I am not saying this is how I feel now, but how I felt before I was frum. I am not even saying this is an okay though, just what I thought, and what a lot of my Jewish friends who dumped me when I became frum felt...

When someone of a different culture or even religion invites you over... you don't feel threatened. You are learning and kind of watching from the outside. However when a frum yid invites you over its scary! (usually this is all unconsciously) Will I be forced to become like them? Will I feel stupid cause I don't know as much? Will I feel like less of a Jew? Than you start feeling kind of protective of yourself and trying to rationalize why how you live is better. Why their way is rediculas and old world. You try to think of all those stereotypes of frum people and put the situation into that. You feel threatened! Your whole way of thought and your whole life is threatened. Scary stuff!
Their jewish neshama's are screaming. They are fighting. They know what the right thing to do is. Its that first step.

↑ RachelSteph ↓

Wed, Dec 15 2004, 12:37 am

Zu I wonder if what your saying is true with my friends. They were all afraid that I was going to change, I told them that something will but if we all work together other things won't change. I will change, but I don't want my relationship with my friends to change and as much as I tried to work at them I really had no control it was out of my hands. I lost two good friends after eight years of friendship because of my renued faith, and almost all of my other friends feel that I know more, or that I'm judging them. which I am not My husband and I go out every week with his friends to show them that we hanven't changed and I always invite my friends to come along. After I got married I decided to invite my friends over for shabbat suppers and lunchs so that I could see them. We even try to make a BBQ every summer to get everyone together and then come all of the Bday parties, births, Brit M's etc We always inclueded our friends to make them feel welcome. It just so happens that religious people are sometimes intimidating to the not so religious person. so I think there is not much we can do but to do our best and to do what makes up happy. If I didn't choose the path that fit me I really don't think I would have all that I have now. As much as it saddens me to think of the friends that I've lost I still am reminded of all that I have. Two wonderful kids and a supportive husband and a comunity of good people who are caring and accepting. I am now part of something more than before and it feels great!

↑ Motek ↓

Wed, Dec 15 2004, 1:07 pm

zun - I think your answer makes a lot of sense, and it shows, so clearly, how a Jew is a Jew, no matter what, and even if a Jew knows nothing about his own Judaism, he knows, on a soul level, that he belongs to the Jewish people, and that anywhere else he goes, he's an outsider.

and both you and RachelSteph are inspirations to me (and I'm sure to others)

↑ zuncompany ↓

Wed, Dec 15 2004, 2:50 pm

Please... I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for that wonderful family in a small college town who brought their children to a place where nobody else is like them, no schools for them, no kosher food without having it shipped in, no family. They opened their home and their heart (and their extended families too when I went to CH for seminary). When it came time for me to get married... Rabbi was tatty and took full responsibilty of finding someone suitable (not just to me, but to him too!!). She spent hours on the phone letting me talk it out. When they met Zu for the first time (I was preg with Tev) you should have seen the nachas in their eyes!

Rach- you know what I say about the friends I lost... they weren't really my friends if they jumped ship so easily!

Sara

↑ RachelSteph ↓

Wed, Dec 15 2004, 3:10 pm

That’s so nice of you guys, to say that, but I still feel that I could be doing more. Even though I learn as best as I can and have made a commitment to my religion, in order for it to not die out in my family, but also to reap the benefits that will come in the future. I still feel bad for everyone else who could be having a better life, or the ones who live a reformed or traditional life with really no Jewish education and no love and respect for what our ancestors had to go through to keep this wonderful religion. It's upsetting...But at least I do what I have to do and as long as my family can see the happiness in our family maybe just maybe they will decide to learn and become more religious that’s really what I'm hopping for. A miracle... I also hope my Grandfather could live to see it happen, my grandmother unfortunately didn't an they both tried hard to keep the family with in the Jewish religion but it was hard for them and now that my GF is older he's basically given up. But I haven't and thank Hashem for my understanding husband. He has to help me in explaining the history and the holidays and in return we have to endure all of the negativity, disputes, and controversy that comes with it. It's a constant battle but he likes it and my family doesn't mind.

↑ RachelSteph

Wed, Dec 15 2004, 3:17 pm

Ya I know Zu everyone keeps saying but I had such wonderful times with them, and maybe one day our paths will cross and people could have a change of heart. things can change, they will still me my friends just not as close as I hoped. and Anyhow thank g-d I'm doing just fine making other close relationships and working on other friends who I've know for over 10 years. I do have a lot of friends thank G-d. I need to have people in my life, husband, children, family and friends I wouldn't be able to function with out all of those things.

Pickle Lady

Wed, Dec 15 2004, 3:28 pm

I totally agree with sara...

This is a delicate issue and it must be dealt with depending on the person and situation. My aunt and uncle were frum while I grew up and my family was not frum. So I know what its like to be invited to a your frum family when you are not frum. Especially since it was my family I felt a need to stand up for the type of person I was and that meant my dress and other things. I thought that thier way of judaism was old and restricting. I do rememeber once my aunt asked my sister to leave a family function (at my aunt house) and put on a skirt instead of pants. My sister was very upset and didn't come back to the family function. That made an impression to my sister that my aunt did not excpet her unless my sister was like her.

If you feel so uncomfortable inviting a person to your shabbos table that is not dress modestly then don't invite them. I really believe in what sara said, this person will notice they are not mosestly dressed and feel uncomfortable and probably will ask to cover up.

I was so proud of my sister because she will wear very very revealing cloths and when we went to the Kotel she wore modest clothing and even encouraged her friend to do the same (I never said a word). People aren't stupid they will notice they are imodestly dressed if they are the only one in a low cut shirt. But if you repsect them, they will respect you and you will make a better impression on them.

My sister sometimes comes to my house and she has asked "well would you mind if I am wearing pants". I always say that depends on if you feel comfortable in my home like that, I want you to feel comfortable in my home. Since I respect her, then she respects me. So she able to not be defensive about her lifestyle and enjoy her time with me. Also she is then more mecabel to our yiddishkeit.

The way you react to a person immodestly dressed in your house depends on the person and the situation.

I hope I made sense. I too have lost my brain since I became a mom.

↑ Tefila ↓

Wed, Dec 15 2004, 4:22 pm

Quote:

If you feel so uncomfortable inviting a person to your shabbos table that is not dress modestly then don't invite them. I really believe in what sara said, this person will notice they are not mosestly dressed and feel uncomfortable and probably will ask to cover up

And what happens if they ask.
There is nonething wrong enforcing a policy as long as it is done with tact and respect and love We can't only be worried about their feelings , but also the rest of the members in our home.... and for this I am selfish Hashem didn't give me the title akeres Habyis for nonething Exclamation

↑ Motek

Wed, Dec 15 2004, 6:39 pm

and if they don't ask, but feel uncomfortable-

isn't it a chesed to them to offer them a sweater or something to make them feel comfortable and because they should be dressed properly?

why look at it as only being in your best interests if they cover up?

when you offer to help someone put on tefillin, isn't it good for them? when you offer Shabbos candles to someone, isn't it good for them? why isn't tznius also considered something good for them?

↑ zuncompany

Wed, Dec 15 2004, 6:48 pm

honestly, I think people feel more sensitive about their clothing. its a part of their identity.

I think if you see someone uncomfortable for sure offer!!!

freilich- is there a happy medium? I know when I brought students with me and they asked, I explained what was proper. those were not usually the ones though who this was an issue for.

sara