The Homework Myth by Alfie Kohn

↑ avigailmiriam ↓

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 1:37 pm

Fox wrote:

avigailmiriam wrote:

Well, my parents required me to earn my own spending money from the time I was a kid, ditto for my siblings, so we learned how to work for money. My sisters and brother and I would bid (like a contractor submits bids) for jobs around the household. It was great, we really learned the value of money and it was fun. I started working as a babysitter at 12. I don't think it's a bad thing for kids to learn to work for their own spending money when they're a child.

I think that's great, but working for your parents around the house for spending money is not what I mean by "the workplace" -- I'm making an analogy showing that we are significantly inconsistent when we give homework for the sole purpose of preparing students for . . . more homework!

However, the point you bring up is another reason I despise the homework mill: I realize that boys must be careful of issues of bitul Torah and all teenagers must be careful of tznius issues, but the fact that most frum teenagers have very limited experience in the workplace is a major, major problem. I am not counting babysitting, camp counseling, and other jobs that -- while they may be very demanding -- do not require kids to learn about the basic expectations of employers. I would much prefer my DDs to have practical work experience rather than translating an extra Ramban!

I'm a BT, so I've only in the last few years become acquainted with this phenomenon. I should point out that went I meant working, I meat WORKING. My dad had his own business and he was the strictest employer I ever had. When I got to college and applied for a 15 hours a week job with the maintenance department (ironically, doing the same thing I do now in a more complicated form) I was able to say I'd been working in the field for years. If I hadn't had that kind of experience, I don't know why my employers would have wanted to hire me. I think there are jobs frum teenagers could do to earn real world work experience that wouldn't interfere with halacha.

Homework bugs me, but I'm more bugged by the wasted time I see in the classroom. DH and I are tyring to find a way to swing homeschooling any children we have.

↑ avigailmiriam ↓

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 1:43 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

avigailmiriam wrote:

Fox wrote:

.
"Students need to have lots of homework because they'll have even more in high school."
Why do students need to "get used" to doing homework? Do we make our 4th graders take paid employment so they'll "get used" to the requirements of the workplace? Based on previous Imamother threads, that might have been more beneficial for some people! Do we insist our 8th graders pay us rent so that they'll "get used" to being responsible for providing food and shelter? There are plenty of things people might need to "get used" to doing, but homework hardly seems like the most pressing!

Your parents never bought you presents, treats etc?
My kids have chores; they don't bid. The older ones have also worked for their spending money, but we still get them treats and such. Sometimes the treat is a reward for helping, for example they get themselves a small candy or treat from the Makolet when they go up the hill for me. And a friend wants to trade babysitting for art lessons for my daughter, thought that is completely up to her.

But clothes, food stuff like that is all my obligation.

Clothes, food, shelter, yes. We got enough clothes to last us for the season. Anything trendy or extra we wanted came out of pocket. We had simple, healthy food and as much of it as we wanted. Any junk food we wanted we bought ourselves. We got a few toys every year and shared and sometimes bought our own (my sisters and I pooled funds to boy our own American Girl doll.) We got a couple of presents on Chanaukah and a couple on our birthday. That was it.

In all, I liked the system. We had chores too. We bid to earn spending money. You should have heard what happened the time my siblings and I formed a cartel to fix prices for our services...

↑ HindaRochel

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 1:48 pm

avigailmiriam wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

avigailmiriam wrote:

Fox wrote:

Well I'm glad you liked the system, but it isn't for me. I like getting gifts for my kids and spending money on them. I wish I had more money to spend on them. I'm not talking about expensive gifts, but little treats.

I like the memories; they stick with me even if they don't with the kids. The other day we attended a Bris Milah; the bris was held in a restaurant (the meal part, not the bris itself). Well one of my daughter's and I returned home alone, the other went with the family (she's good friends with the sister of the new baby boy) and to make a long story short, we made it an "our day". We window shopped mostly, but I got her a hair clip and a special drink and we had a great time.

We can't afford something we can't afford it. But if we could, I would get them so much more.

↑ Fox ↓

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 2:26 pm

avigailmiriam wrote:

If I hadn't had that kind of experience, I don't know why my employers would have wanted to hire me. I think there are jobs frum teenagers could do to earn real world work experience that wouldn't interfere with halacha.

Homework bugs me, but I'm more bugged by the wasted time I see in the classroom. DH and I are tyring to find a way to swing homeschooling any children we have.

I agree completely -- on both counts. Most teenagers in the secular/non-Jewish world have part-time jobs during their HS years, and this was far more common in the frum world years ago. Many of the difficulties I read about even here on imamother are based on simple lack of experience in a real work setting. And most young women are comparatively sophisticated in navigating the world of work compared to young men.

Sometimes I wish I could "solve" part of the whole kollel issue by saying, "Stay in kollel: learn two sedarim and work in a fast-food place a few hours a day." I'm being facetious, of course, but the basic skills learned in those early jobs are much more painful to learn years later in "professional" jobs.

↑ avigailmiriam

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 3:59 pm

Fox wrote:

avigailmiriam wrote:

I agree completely -- on both counts. Most teenagers in the secular/non-Jewish world have part-time jobs during their HS years, and this was far more common in the frum world years ago. Many of the difficulties I read about even here on Imamother are based on simple lack of experience in a real work setting. And most young women are comparatively sophisticated in navigating the world of work compared to young men.

Sometimes I wish I could "solve" part of the whole kollel issue by saying, "Stay in kollel: learn two sedarim and work in a fast-food place a few hours a day." I'm being facetious, of course, but the basic skills learned in those early jobs are much more painful to learn years later in "professional" jobs.

Given that plenty of college students, particularly low-income ones, work 20+ hours a week while going to school full time, (having done it, it's absolutely brutal, but doable) I think kollelim could easily implement a more moderate work-study program. That would do a lot of good.

Imaonwheels ↓

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 4:13 am

I do not think "homework" in general is good or bad. It depends on the program, number of hours in a school day and the type of assignments.

This made me cringe:

Quote:

He has to 1) review math flashcards 2) review sight reading word flashcards 3) do miscellaneous homework sheets for limudei chol 4) practice kriah 5)review several psukim in chumash.

Do schools really still use flash cards? Sight reading?

If the research includes these type of assignments then no wonder the evidence is saying homework is not helpful.
Flash cards are not effective and sight reading has been proven to create a very convincing imitation of dislexia in children who do not have an organic problem.
I would like to know what kind of controls he did to make sure that it was not the use of homework or the parents improper management of homework that causes the problem. All homework is not created equal and not all parents know how or are cut out to help their child.

The only subject that needs practice is math, and in math it is essential. Artistic skills as well.

Language skills are best gathered by reading writing and speaking. Of course as much as possible these activities should be geared to the interests and day to day life of the child. It is very helpful if these activities are encouraged after school as well. Reading skills increase with guided and graded use once the foundation is laid.

Limudei kodesh fall into 2 categories. Text learning of Chumash, Mishna, Gemorra and hashkafa are best done interactively with classmates or family members. Dinim must be memorized and tested on. Learning texts baal peh is also very useful as a supplement. The brain must do both memory and cognitive work.

If a boy is in Talmud Torah until 6PM then homework is a burden. It should be enough to review pleasantly or answer a few questions. Shabbos is a good sum up time.

Girls with more limudei chol and a different complement of limudei kodesh (and usually a shorter day) should be doing a half hour of homework a day and at least an hour in HS.

As to parents I see several styles that destroy the value of homework. Definitely the impatient parent who badgers the kid, not to mention calling him stupid or lazy. The next is the parent who does the homework for the child and feels bad if it is difficult. There is the parent who will not allow the child to return an assignment with a mistake even if they have to do one of the above mistakes. There is the parent who does not take the work seriously and does not require the child to do it or relate to it seriously.

In teachers I see 2 mistakes that are negative:
1. To give assignments for the sake of having homework without putting much thought into them - teacher on automatic pilot
2. Teachers who tell kids that they will not grade, need not turn in or in some other way not relate to the work the child has done. This does not teach learning for its olwn sake but is a betrayal. The child has done his part and the teacher is being negligent. Children need acknowledgment and guidance.

↑ Fox ↓

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 10:16 am

Imaonwheels wrote:

Girls with more limudei chol and a different complement of limudei kodesh (and usually a shorter day) should be doing a half hour of homework a day and at least an hour in HS.

Why? Why is there a "should" in this equation? How can legitimate assignments be "averaged" in such a manner? In most subjects, there might many days in which there would be no homework at all combined with larger, independent assignments that might require even more time outside class.

Imaonwheels wrote:

In teachers I see 2 mistakes that are negative:
1. To give assignments for the sake of having homework without putting much thought into them - teacher on automatic pilot
2. Teachers who tell kids that they will not grade, need not turn in or in some other way not relate to the work the child has done. This does not teach learning for its olwn sake but is a betrayal. The child has done his part and the teacher is being negligent. Children need acknowledgment and guidance.

In my DDs' elementary school, these two mistakes comprise 99.9 percent of the homework assigned. The evaluation methodology is even more problematic: evaluation is conducted almost exclusively via short response, fill-in-the-blank, and matching tests. Other projects, presentations, or activities are often not graded or not counted in the average because, after all, they are not tests. Of course, if you're only evaluating students one way, you have to do a lot of it, so the next test is often administered before the first one has been graded.

↑ Imaonwheels ↓

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 12:57 pm

Even in large projects students should be taught to pace the work more or less evenly and have their project checked at stages. As I said, there is math which needs constant practice and varied applications of the concepts. For most classes preparation before hand is very helpful, especially in limudei kodesh.

Of course these are guidelines and not cast in stone.

Why would a project not be included in the grade? Usually they are a significant part of the grade for older kids. Weird.

I agree that testing methods and the graded learning school in its most orthodox form (fill in the blank) hinder learning and give no real indication to whether the child has mastered the material enough to move on. I took my ds out of a school because when they finally started Gemora they got a workbook. The teacher read, translated and explained and homework was to fill in the blanks in the workbook. After 2 years he could not read the Gemora for himself. After moving him to a regular TT he caught up with the class in 2 weeks.

bandcm

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:39 pm

I taught third-grade for one year.
The principal insisted that I give homework. I often did not, as I could not think of anything to give! They were reading fluently, the only new skills were chumash, and I just could not give them more worksheets in addition to the time we spent on it in school.
The principal was very displeased. She told me that they were very pleased with me, but there was one area in which I could do better - more responsibility in assigning homework consistently!
Well, I went back to high school after that, where the principal was less involved, and I think my average was five pieces of homework assigned per class per year.
The girls thought I was slacking, but I explained that it's not that I forgot, I really don't want to give them homework this week.

↑ Fox

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 1:58 pm

Imaonwheels wrote:

Even in large projects students should be taught to pace the work more or less evenly and have their project checked at stages.

After criticizing virtually everything else, there is one thing that I wish the schools would make more time to teach, review, and help students apply: time and project management.

The schools in my community actually took a big step this year: they standardized the Yoman that the students use to write down assignments, etc. In previous years, every teacher set up a different system, and sometimes the limudei kodesh and limudei chol teachers would require totally separate assignment books!

I would love to see a whole school commit to using something like the approach suggested in The Organized Student by Donna Goldberg. Truthfully, it doesn't matter what time/project management approach you use -- it just needs to be consistent across the school. To me, this kind of instruction would be a million times more useful than the ubiquitous photocopied worksheets that we all know and love!

↑ Imaonwheels

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 10:09 pm

Those worksheets are non existent in the Israeli charedi schools as far as I know. The closest thing is a page of math problems but normally the kids have to copy out their assignments. Questions are normally long answer as opposed to multiple choice or fill in the blank. Flash cards as well are more or less non existant.

Here girls are taught to be organized with covered notebooks for each subject and a yoman where they write down their assignments and parent or teacher can write each other a note. Boys less so unfortunately.

The teacher writes out the questions on the board and the kids copy them until the kids are old enough that the assignment is too long to copy.

I wish they would use the boys method of teaching reading for the girls. I did it for my dd at home using the sefer mesores.