Mesivta for "top" boy

amother

↑ Clear ↓

Yesterday at 8:40 am

amother Dimgray wrote:

There will be a number of money families. High end cars in the lot by PTA. Very few learning/ klei kodesh fathers, mostly successful businessmen. Discussion of Ferragamo belts and the like. But some very shtark learners and good ruach. Boys who do well there are very put together and very on socially. Boys who aren’t, even if they are smart and good at learning will not do as well, and generally won’t be accepted anyway.

They take boys who already have it together and give them the opportunity to become more serious and shtark. Other places will focus more on building a boy up even if he isn’t necessarily a finished product.

I find that there are a lot of "shtark" learners, not just "some".
Boys that have money don't talk abt it as much, they just have the things.

And I definitely don't think that they look at the boys as finished products! They just, yes, are a place for boys that are smart and want do well and it's not a place for boys who need a lot of extra help or to be pulled & pushed to learn or behave. I'm not sure why but your response came off as very negative.

There are many other places for boys like that and I'm sure those boys are also just as wonderful.

amother

Slategray ↓

Yesterday at 8:41 am

Small bean.

Where does your son want to go?
Im sure he has ideas

Youve posted about hs girls before, is this your first son?

Most established mesivtas are very narrow in skill and personality type.
I would hesitate to send him to a lower level mesivta unless hes boarderline.

If you want more breadth. An option could be a a new mesivta. Look for one being started by someone with a very good name and try to send woth a core chevra of 5 or 6 boys similar to your son that your son knows.

The mesivta will ispend time meetng with you and your husband to help you make the decision. Yoi can get to know the 9th grade rebbe.

Its a risk, because the mesivta will solidify around a type and it might not be top tier.

On the other hand mintz, greenfields. Landaus were all only in their third or 4th year for various sons on mine and already considered "top" and hard to get into.

amother

↑ SandyBrown

Yesterday at 8:43 am

Chayalle wrote:

I would assume she means in ability to learn. That's not elitist. It's just a fact. Torah is our standard measure.

It’s no more elitist than half the mesivtas listed. Many are just boys who learn at a higher level. But all are not good enough for him/ her. It’s ironic but it’s elitist to think nothing is good enough for you.

amother

↑ Latte

Yesterday at 8:51 am

small bean wrote:

Some of these yeshivas mentioned were given by his rebbi but my son has reasons for each one. Elitist gets me nauseous so maybe that passes on to him also.

I totally get you and we were in the same boat when my son was applying to mesivta. There was one place I said a hard no to because of an extreme elitist attitude. But my son's rebbi was clear with us that his level of learning is really high and that he needed to attend such a yeshiva in order to be challenged.

As an aside, it was a big adjustment for him coming from elementary school where his understanding and learning were way above everyone else in his class, to mesivta where he is on a similar level to the other boys. Is that possibly what's holding your son back from applying to these mesivtos?

amother

↑ Zinnia ↓

Yesterday at 8:55 am

mha3484 wrote:

Its not elitist when you have a very bright son who spent Pre1a-8th bored to tears. I like to use the term high acheiver or highly academic over top boy but its not elitist to want to be challenged at your level.

I 100% agree with you.
Which is why my son is in a "top place" in Lakewood.
Keren Hatorah.

However, I also have to acknowledge that there is some elitism going on with some boys. A "look at me, I'm so special, I got into Keren, im guaranteed a great shidduch and I don't have to work on my Middos".

It's only a tiny fraction. But it's there.
Personally, I hate elitism. But my son needed the high academic places so I had to swallow my distaste and shift my attitude and education. How not to be elitists and get stuck on the Shtoltz even though he's in a "top place".
And guiding him to find humble real friends.

But the elitist attitude with some boys is actually a necessary evil for my son. We looked into less elitist places, the academics were so much below his capabilities and I just couldn't do that to him anymore.

↑ small bean ↓

Yesterday at 9:24 am

I was using his rabbis word. I think all my kids are top kids, but just because they're mine.

It's my second son and they are very different.

Each elementary school has yeshivos that they send boys to. Some places are just not on his schools list and we know nothing about it.

Lastly, my son doesn't know where he wants to apply, just where he doesn't but with 71 places in Lakewood that doesn't rule out enough.

Lastly, I'm not saying no to anywhere but I get why he doesn't want to go to certain places that are considered top.

amother

Nasturtium ↓

Yesterday at 9:37 am

I don't have experience with this yet

So perhaps my question is naive but what does a high pressure environment actually mean?

Are boys kicked out? Is there some actual benefit to being number one?

I went to a very high achieving high school where I was no longer the smartest girl in the class but it really was wonderful to be among other people as smart as me and even smarter. And to not be bored as concepts had to be dumbed down or explained over and over again.

There was pressure to get good grades but not to the extent that it made girls crazy as there were also non-academic activities everyone enjoyed.

amother

↑ Zinnia ↓

Yesterday at 9:42 am

High pressured can mean a peer pressure to spend most of lunch and supper break in the Bais Medrash.
It can mean a pressure to finish the whole masechta (you don't want to be the only one in your shiur who doesn't)
It can mean a pressure to learn many hours on an off Shabbos so you're not dumped by your chavrusa.
Or to have extra chavrusas at 10:30 at night.

A boy feels like he needs to keep up with the pack so he's not only getting "Chessed case chavrusas" so he might push himself excessively to keep up with the others.
Its pathetic because in high pressured places they're all trying to keep up with each other, not the hanhalla.

But that's what pressure can mean.

amother

↑ Dimgray ↓

Yesterday at 9:49 am

amother Clear wrote:

Emek is a terrific place. By the time they get to bais medrash those boys that stay on (not all are automatically allowed to continue- there is some attrition in the later grades) are top notch.

They do tend to have boys with a rather bale batish background vs other high level mesivtas and the rabbeim do spend effort “driving it out” of the boys. There is going to be knowledge and some talk of the newest high end car features and there is a considerable amount of money spent on takeout and the like by a few wealthier boys (though you can find some of that in many mesivtas).

What I mean by finished product is that they are not looking to work with boys that need any sort of attention socially or the like. The typical Emek boy is very socially on and with it, good at making friends, and already likely to be matzliach in life in many ways.

Other mesivtas may look for a boy that has the brains and raw ingredients but needs the right mesivta or Rosh Mesivta to work his magic so that he can mold the boy into a confident, socially on, yeshiva bochur.

There no better or worse, just catering to a very different crowd.

amother

↑ Nasturtium

Yesterday at 9:49 am

amother Zinnia wrote:

Thank you as I assume you were responding to my question.

Honestly if this is what "high pressure' means in this context it really sounds like an unhealthy environment even for a very smart boy as it would create a lot of psychological pressure to keep up with a few boys who might have some kind of personality disorder in terms of being obsessive. This is not meant as an insult to high achieving boys but just a reflection on how an atmosphere could not be conducive to overall psychological well being if it become so focused on keeping up with a few boys and then becomes a self fulfilling type of environment.

ETA It would also seem to be the responsibility of the school not to "reward" unhealthy behavior of a few boys.

amother

↑ Dimgray ↓

Yesterday at 9:54 am

amother Zinnia wrote:

I have a couple of friends with boys in one of the so callled self directed high pressure mesivtas. The pressure was motivating but a number of boys, especially approaching 12th grade suffered from the pressure. My friends son was top of the shiur but developed stress and clinical anxiety and several other boys in the shiur had adverse repercussions ranging from clinical diagnoses to simple stress and fatigue. Know your son, and know when to insist that he have an off ramp before the pressure affects him negatively.

Mommy1!

Yesterday at 10:36 am

There are over 50 misivtas in lkwd, there must be one that is a fit for your son. Both my boys are Kah smart but we are not the elite or overachiever type. They ended up going to newer places (second and third year) and I've seen more success with one than the other. Ask the rebbi what he recommends, talk to 'real' people who know you, your family, and your son. There was a great article in The Voice about mesivtas this past week that is worth reading. Hatzlocha!

amother

↑ Slategray ↓

Yesterday at 11:10 am

amother Zinnia wrote:

Btw, im pretty sure even in mid level Lakewood mesivtas the better learners/more serious boys finish the masechta theyre learning (on their own time).

Have extra chavrusahs, etc.

↑ small bean ↓

Yesterday at 11:27 am

Mommy1! wrote:

There are 71 on the voices list and I don't think it's all. It's knowing about them and taking into account my sons opinions.

I found it really easy with my older son because he didn't have much opinion. Just wanted a middle of the road warm place. Which there are lots of.