Chutzpah post high school

amother

Skyblue ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 12:22 pm

amother Khaki wrote:

I saw what happens firsthand when parents have no boundaries and keep giving money/favors and letting kids treat them like dirt and walk all over them. It's not pretty and does nothing for the relationship.

U can stand up for yourself without yelling and screaming. U can set boundaries.

It's cause and effect. Treat your family/parents with respect and you get the privileges you enjoy as being part of a family. Treat them with disdain and rudeness and you get nothing but food and shelter.

Call me old fashioned but frankly I've seen the results of the new parenting methods and the results are pretty terrible.

I was raised „the old way“ and have a similar dynamic.
My mom has abused me as a child but okay. In her book she was trying her best and she really was, according to her understanding.

She has been treating me disrespectfully in my adult years, even when I am already married with kids. She has no boundaries. She would never apologize because her old school mindset is that parents are holy a priori and can never do wrong. So when I got extremely triggered by her innocent behavior like talking to my cleaner behind my back about how untidy I am, while her being a guest in my house, and would yell or snap at her (mirroring how she treated me when I was a child). The response would be how come you talk to me like that (without ever addressing the actual issue at hand, just the tone).

Over time and after a lot of therapy, I have started to express how her words make me feel and what I expect. Always I-message, very carefully chosen words and in a calm voice. As a response I heard „quit saying so much you always reply too much“.
Since I became so vocal, she started to pull away because I guess she „couldn’t be herself“ anymore. She very much likes to sit back and say a ton of nonsense in a confident manner, and that wasn’t happening anymore. As a result of pulling away, I got hurt that I am being punished for expressing my needs. I also don’t pursue the relationship because I am expected to put in all the work and the interactions are frankly not pleasant because she still didn’t work on herself at all. I am resentful that I did therapy so I am now more advanced than her and am supposed to be „the bigger person“ in a relationship, where the bigger person is by definition the older one (hence the expectation of respect).
She has a ton of healing to do due to her own trauma and has tons of blind spots where she doesn’t see how immature she acts and how she is hurting other people.

amother

↑ Khaki

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 12:41 pm

amother Skyblue wrote:

I'm sorry you had a hard life. I was raised with the worst of both worlds like you.

Zero respect or boundaries for who I was and my needs while being expected to give respect because parents are holy no matter what.

I still maintain that the best way to maintain a healthy relationship is boundaries boundaries boundaries. From the children to the parents and the parents to the children. With healthy boundaries, respect can flourish because everyone's needs are being met.

When parents are encouraged to be kind and giving no matter what it breeds disdain by kids and resentment by parents. When children are encouraged to give respect no matter what it breeds resentment and trauma from kids and continued poor behavior by parents.

In this case based on the limited we are being told, the child is lacking boundaries and behaving rudely to her parents and the parents are lacking boundaries by continuing to allow themselves to be treated this way and continuing to give. What would would set this on a better course is mom setting the boundaries of not giving when being spoken to rudely.

amother

Chambray

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 12:50 pm

amother OP wrote:

How am I supposed to be reacting when dd is extremely chutzpadik. For example will tell me to go to hell. Tell me shut up. Bh none of my other children talk like this. She is post high school has always had a mouth and struggles with yiddishkeit. I close my mouth and eyes to many things but chutzpah to me is inexcusable. I ask her when she’s relaxed how in the world she thinks she can talk like this and think she’ll get on in the world successfully. People are going to turn away from her. She’s just not getting it. So when she says these things to me how am I supposed to react? What’s the proper response? When I was her age I was married already so she’s definitely old enough to know and understand this behavior is ridiculous and immature.

When I was your daughters age I was pretty chuzpadik to my mother too. I was hurting and dealing with my own issues, and my mother made it worse by keeping quiet and “taking it all in” without standing up to me. It brought out the worst in me. It sounds like things are a bit different with your daughter but I would say as a mom to stay strong and don’t let her trample over you like others are saying.
E.g.
“Excuse me, we don’t talk like that, I cannot continue this conversation until you can speak respectfully.”
End. Just stay firm. She is an adult so it’s not like you can still discipline the same way but basic respect applies for all ages.

amother

Oldlace

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 1:01 pm

amother OP wrote:

I would frame it as respect instead of chutzpah. We all have to treat each other respectfully.

We also can't control other people, but we can share our own feelings and assert boundaries.

Asking how she will get along in the world if that's how she talks, does not let her know how her speech affects or hurts you, and it also does not let her know your boundaries.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 1:34 pm

I don’t think I will ever kick her out. She’s definitely going through something. Maybe she’s getting nervous bc she hit 20 already?! Maybe she’s realizing that the schooling path she’s told everyone that would listen isn’t what she thought and wants to change but unsure how after everyone knows?! Maybe she’s scared start dating but really wants to but also knows maybe she’s not emotionally ready yet?! Maybe she’s having feelings over the fact that she gave her younger sister permission to start shidduchim and really isn’t so ok with it?! Another thing is she hates helping me. So for instance on Friday everyone was doing something to get ready for shabbos she was sitting on the couch with her phone chilling. I asked her if she can windex the few windows my toddler got handprints on after the cleaning lady had cleaned it. And she starts complaining how she has to do everything. But honestly really not. Once every few weeks I’ll ask her to put the little ones to sleep. Or if she can stop at a store on the way home to pick something up - she’s passing store anyway. Or I’ll ask her to take the garbage outside or set the table for shabbos. I dont know I guess I’m trying to figure out where I went wrong. My other girls aren’t like this at all and they aren’t much younger than her.

amother

↑ Stoneblue

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 1:36 pm

amother OP wrote:

Is she in therapy?

amother

↑ Skyblue ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 4:49 pm

amother Khaki wrote:

I was just portraying a case when there is no abstract „chutzpah“ there is trauma response but in order to recognize it, one needs to recognize the trauma.

amother

↑ Skyblue ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 5:06 pm

amother OP wrote:

It’s really treating her like another one of your „girls“. I don’t know what’s the better way but doesn’t seem an adult treatment

amother

↑ Skyblue

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 5:07 pm

amother OP wrote:

Has she ever been in camp or sem? Has she ever been a roommate?

amother

Seagreen

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 5:15 pm

I feel like there's a lot of work you can do here. It's not easy to learn how to set healthy boundaries with someone who's disrespectful, but you can. I agree with stop thinking about her as a child in terms of boundaries.

If you have a co-worker who insults you and you can't get rid of them, what would you do? Maybe when they start saying anything insulting you walk away. Maybe you look at them and say don't talk to me that way, rinse, repeat. Whatever it is, you have a right to do it. The healthy thing is not to try to argue them out of it, to punish them out of it, or to just let them get away with it with no response at all.
Same with asking her to do something- if there's something which is the coworker's job, you tell her clearly no matter how much she grumbles. So if you've decided that a reasonable amount of chores is x then those are her chores and she can grumble and complain from today till tomorrow. She can tell you you're the worst mother and you make her do the most chores in the world. They're just words. They don't have to control your actions and you know they're not true.

You keep trying to please her, for her to like you. It's not working. You can have compassion for her struggles and still recognize that she's acting irrationally out of pain. You can state your boundaries clearly and hold to them.

At the same time, I strongly disagree with the people who say you should throw her out. While usually that might be very good advice, in this case, she's just as likely to move in with people who will further her downhill spiral. You might improve your relationship or you might lose the influence you still have on her. Unless perhaps there's a creative idea, such as a dorm in a Frum school, or boarding by a relative in a different city, or something else you can think of that might work.

ora_43 ↓

Yesterday at 7:30 am

amother OP wrote:

Thank you! It’s definitely hard to remember at the intense times how old she is bc she acts so below her age in these instances. You’re right, I must remember she’s an adult and not treat as a child. She asked me to do her a long term favor - which would entail me spending an hr to an hr and half each time a few times a week doing which honestly I don’t have time for but I was doing it for her. I told her after she blew up on me over the shabbos table in front of some friends I won’t be doing the favor and she can hire someone to help her with it like most other people do with this specific favor and she is MAD. This may not have been the proper response and I said it very calmly and low and then continued on hosting. But enough is enough. Yes she is in therapy as well so hoping for change but for now it rough.

Could you clarify, did this all happen in front of her friends? She blew up (do you remember what exactly she said?), then you told her that you won't be helping her in front of her friends, and then dinner continued? Or she got mad in front of her friends, you pulled her aside then and there and told her you won't be doing her the favor? or something else?