Chutzpah post high school

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 9:24 am

amother Offwhite wrote:

She can do that.
She will also destroy any relationship she currently has with her child.
Most parents still want to have a relationship after children become self sufficient adults.
You don't throw kids out of the house because they had chutzpa and were obnoxious!
Please OP, there are way better ways to deal with this.

I will never throw out a child! Unless I’m told by numerous professionals and rabbanim

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 9:25 am

amother Seashell wrote:

The Chutzpah is a symptom more than an issue in it of itself . I don’t think anyone at that age doesn’t know that saying go to hell is disrespectful- there is obviously something else at play. Therefore telling her it’s disrespectful and chutzpadik , even when you are calm is pointless and can be damaging if there is a core issue you aren’t addressing that she is screaming for help, masked in chutzpah

You’re right! I wonder what the core issue is. And bc of her age will I ever know? Or will she keep it private and deal with it in her own?!

amother

↑ Almond ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 9:27 am

amother OP wrote:

You’re right! I wonder what the core issue is. And bc of her age will I ever know? Or will she keep it private and deal with it in her own?!

Is this new thing? Maybe she’s being treated like all the other children but she’s an adult so it’s not working for her. She really needs adults responsibilities. Are you feeding her and doing her laundry? It might work better for her to be in charge of herself.

amother

↑ Offwhite

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 9:44 am

amother OP wrote:

You’re right! I wonder what the core issue is. And bc of her age will I ever know? Or will she keep it private and deal with it in her own?!

When did it start?
She was a model student throughout high school and now chutzpadik?
Does she like her college classes?
Dies she have good friends?
Does she seem happy with her life?
Take her out for ice cream and just listen!!
Don't give advice, just tell her that you want to spend some time with her, would she like to join you for a quick trip at ice cream store?
It's a tough age to navigate, they're officially "adults" and behaving like "children"!

amother

Jasmine ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 9:52 am

Molly Weasley wrote:

Why is it wrong to gently remind her, once she’s calmed down, that it's not appropriate to tell people to get lost, go to hell, shut up - especially those who are paying your bills?

This with a bit of a twist.
I wouldn't necessarily bring in the paying the bills part. I don't see the connection.
She needs to be made aware that you cannot speak that way to her parents. It's a kibbud av vem issue and is required by Hashem and basic mentchlichkeit.
I can't imagine that this started now.
Special children also can't speak and curse just because they are on the spectrum or have another diagnosis.
It's not ok.
I don't care what she is struggling with.
A mother and father should not be stepped on, muddied, abused just because their daughter is struggling with yiddishkeit. You can struggle with yiddishkeit without this.
No one deserves to be spoken to like that and if you allow it and just shower love and acceptance that this is ok, is the totally wrong message that will not make either party feel very loving and accepting towards each other.
Hugs op, of course you should speak calmly with no anger, just reiterate that she can't speak to you like that.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 9:52 am

She has always been on edge, chutzpah to an extent, struggle with yiddishkeit. This behavior isn’t new now tho she is less willing to pretend she’s a sweet girl and showing her true colors to the world. I love her dearly and have been putting up with a lot for years somehow when she speaks disrespectful later at night I’ve always told myself she’s tired, overwhelmed basically made excuses in my mind. Now when she’s doing this midday in public I’ve had a wake up call that this is not coming from tiredness. It happens to be that my in laws have a very very difficult personality like this and I fear she’s the same. I also know that people in the street avoid them or talk nebach about them. I guess I’m grateful she’s not interested in dating right now.

amother

↑ Jasmine

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 9:59 am

amother OP wrote:

I feel for you, very painful. Sometimes parents do a disservice to their children by not guiding them properly for fear of backlash from them. We are the adults and are supposed to do what we need to do even if our children reject it and make us feel like we are abusing them with showing them what's ok and what's not ok. That's what chinuch is for.
Don't give up on her. Think positively about her, and in her ability to change for the better.
But please don't allow her to trample all over you.
You need to at least point it out to her.
Sometimes children only get the message by saying:
You see that no one wants to speak with that lady because she always yells at people? Be specific in your example, preferable someone that your daughter knows and doesn't think highly of.
You can tell her: This is what you sound like. Again, with no anger, just state a fact.
Really sending you hugs and strength!

amother

↑ Dill ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:11 am

amother Hosta wrote:

There is a way to set boundaries.( and very important)
But once someone is an adult age you need to set boundaries the way you set boundaries with an adult and not as a kid.
If you would reread my comment you will see that I suggested that I said she should set boundaries similar to a way you would set boundaries with a spouse.
Respecting someone and showing love does not mean that we agree with all life choices .
But letting them know dispite this they are loved and respecting them for all their strength.( people don’t need to be treated as they can do no wrong to know they are loved as respected)

I feel that in a lot of chinich thread people get lost in what the goal of chinuch is
The goal is to create great adults not create a perfectly behaved children.

In this case when this child has reached adulthood and is not in a great place as an adult.
I believe the parent’s obligation is to put aside their kovod and what should be the ideal tzura of a home.
And focus on how to get this child to a place where they can lead a respectful and successful life.

That is the core of the issue. They shouldn’t be treated as a spouse because a spouse is an equal and a child is not. Children should know the hierarchy the same way they understand the hierarchy with a boss. It’s not a matter of the parents putting aside kavod, it’s a matter of learning how to treat your parents. This has nothing to do with ego but with learning to communicate respectfully.

amother

Khaki ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:12 am

I saw what happens firsthand when parents have no boundaries and keep giving money/favors and letting kids treat them like dirt and walk all over them. It's not pretty and does nothing for the relationship.

U can stand up for yourself without yelling and screaming. U can set boundaries.

It's cause and effect. Treat your family/parents with respect and you get the privileges you enjoy as being part of a family. Treat them with disdain and rudeness and you get nothing but food and shelter.

Call me old fashioned but frankly I've seen the results of the new parenting methods and the results are pretty terrible.

amother

Daisy

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:18 am

It sounds like part of the issue is she may feel like you are still treating her like a child and trying to control her like a child, probably because she still lives at home and expects things from you like a child.

I would sit down and have a conversation like an adult. Find out how she thinks things should work, what her ideal scenario would look like.

At that point you can bring in adult responsibilities - she is an adult and deserves to be treated like one, and she also needs to have adult behaviors and responsibilities.

What is the arrangement with college? Are you paying for it? Are you paying for all her expenses?
You may be surprised, she may actually like the idea of moving out with a roommate, and you contribute to some of her expenses.
Don't let her guilt or pressure you into more then you can, but it really sounds like SHE will be happier in her own space. I have seen a lot of people struggle with living at home post high school - its hard when you are an adult but being treated like a child. Moving out makes everyone much much happier

If she decides that she wants to stay at home, that's fine, but there needs to be a clear separation of responsibilities and contributions and everyone needs to know where they stand. She probably has some real grievances that are driving the chutzpah, and some entitlement and a lot of emotional baggage. That's all fine, and you can try to come towards her, but in a respectful and compassionate way, you also need to address the way she is speaking to you. Ignoring and then exploding just shows her to ignore and explode.

↑ notshanarishona ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:32 am

Not in a way of kicking out and now that you are an adult we don’t help you at all.. more like it will be beneficial for you to start living like an adult on your own. We can help you x much. The rest is your responsibility but we are here if you need it. For some young adults moving out is the best thing you can do for them. Living at Mommy’s house with all expenses paid is a recipe for full grown babies who are calling mommy for help when they get married.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:41 am

We used to pay for everything and we stopped paying for a few things bc of the entitlement. We pay for tznius clothes for her, food, phone, insurance. Tuition, going out with friends, non tznius and extra clothing, nails-brows, makeup things like that she pays for. She is really upset that we don’t pay for more I told her she works and she needs to be aware of money of how much things cost and the art of saving up for something. She definitely tries to guilt trip me into paying for school. Her friends have told her in front of me to grow up and they pay for everything including all clothes phone bill.. she honestly doesn’t make enough working part time to pay for much else. I and her friends have all told her to get a diff job that pays more but she’s kind of stuck there and is probably afraid to switch.

amother

Aquamarine ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:47 am

amother OP wrote:

How am I supposed to be reacting when dd is extremely chutzpadik. For example will tell me to go to hell. Tell me shut up. Bh none of my other children talk like this. She is post high school has always had a mouth and struggles with yiddishkeit. I close my mouth and eyes to many things but chutzpah to me is inexcusable. I ask her when she’s relaxed how in the world she thinks she can talk like this and think she’ll get on in the world successfully. People are going to turn away from her. She’s just not getting it. So when she says these things to me how am I supposed to react? What’s the proper response? When I was her age I was married already so she’s definitely old enough to know and understand this behavior is ridiculous and immature.

OP I feel for you and this is a very difficult situation to be in. Can you explain to her - you know it's really hurtful when you say things like that, and honestly in life things don't go both ways. If you speak to someone in a rude way they will not be interested in doing things for you. I love you, and am happy and glad to give you everything in the world, but this behavior has got to stop. I understand that you may not stop right away, I just need to see that you are working on this.

amother

↑ Aquamarine

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:55 am

amother OP wrote:

in my opinion this seems pretty reasonable and standard. I disagree with many of the posters above, I think she sounds more like a spoiled kid (not blaming you, some kids are naturally like this) that wants to shirk responsibility and thinks she can do whatever without consequences. Unfortunately, it looks like she needs to learn the hard way that life is not always so smooth

↑ notshanarishona ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 11:26 am

If you let her get away with this behavior all her childhood it’s not going to magically stop because she turned 18.

When I was in college, I worked more than full time. It was hard (no social life, no relaxation) but I managed to finish school without debt. Yes, I understand that 20 years ago was a different generation but if she isn’t making enough money she can either work more hours or find a different job . The same issue will come up when she gets married. It’s part of being an adult is learning how to budget.

↑ notshanarishona

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 11:28 am

Peersupport wrote:

How will it help if she lives in her own space and still talks to you that way?

Do you want to have a good relationship with your daughter or do you want to make a point?

When someone isn’t living with their parents every day there is less conflict (no who left their socks on the floor, no sharing a car, no why did you leave your mess on the table, your room is a mess). It gives them a chance to appreciate all their parents did and become more independent as they learn to do laundry, cook, run errands, pay bills.
Roommates won’t put up with the same verbal abuse as siblings so they quickly learn how to get on in real life and how to talk to people.
So many benefits to moving out