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amother
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 Tue, Dec 24 2024, 10:34 am
| amother Offwhite wrote: | I really think that some people have points down to an exact science. Its an art form. It requires a lot of dedication and time. But those same people also never pay full price for anything, especially not toothpaste or toilet paper. That would be a huge waste of money. It is very much not me but I know a few people like that. They know how to legally work the system. They can quote you which month of the year to buy what products and at which store and for exactly how much per unit at any given time. Its like a hobby to them or something. Most people don't know how to do that but some do. One time I figured I better use some points and I used it and those same people were horrified that I "wasted" my points on whatever because it didn't maximize my spending power. These types know which purchases to put on which credit card. You understand? So much effort goes in. They stretch every penny they earn much farther than the average person. My friends kid knows how to fly first class across the world for the price of coach tickets to Florida. (Not saying that's not luxury, but the point) I'm saying don't judge it necessarily a luxury. There is a chochma & hard work to it.
I would call it the luxury smarts of being so savvy about how to milk credit cards and purchasing power for every penny. |
But if that person is milking their cc points while owing a school or Indiana thousands of dollars, that's not something to admire.
I don't care. Use points and upgrades all you want.
But it's not ok to refuse to pay what you owe and then be busy with your vacations and points and upgrades. Rather use your points to pay back what you owe, even if it means you get less value.
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amother
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Tue, Dec 24 2024, 10:39 am
| amother Offwhite wrote: | I really think that some people have points down to an exact science. Its an art form. It requires a lot of dedication and time. But those same people also never pay full price for anything, especially not toothpaste or toilet paper. That would be a huge waste of money. It is very much not me but I know a few people like that. They know how to legally work the system. They can quote you which month of the year to buy what products and at which store and for exactly how much per unit at any given time. Its like a hobby to them or something. Most people don't know how to do that but some do. One time I figured I better use some points and I used it and those same people were horrified that I "wasted" my points on whatever because it didn't maximize my spending power. These types know which purchases to put on which credit card. You understand? So much effort goes in. They stretch every penny they earn much farther than the average person. My friends kid knows how to fly first class across the world for the price of coach tickets to Florida. (Not saying that's not luxury, but the point) I'm saying don't judge it necessarily a luxury. There is a chochma & hard work to it.
I would call it the luxury smarts of being so savvy about how to milk credit cards and purchasing power for every penny. |
Ok but it’s still a luxury. Imagine they were behind in mortgage or electric threatens shutoff, would they be so smart to use their points for vacations? No. So it’s already talking about people in a different income bracket
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amother
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Tue, Dec 24 2024, 10:40 am
| amother OP wrote: | Many schools ask about vacations, ask how they were paid for.
And absolutely do expect parents to pay up their tuition balance before they go on vacations, even using points
I don't understand how it can not be actually stealing to use money that you have access to for something that's not an absolute bare bones basis need while you still owe money, especially to a Jew. |
Interesting, I don't have kids in school yet, but from what I hear about all the talk, it's not so simple. ( same with rent vs a huge mortgage)
Were getting all our finances in order before our baby come iy"h to plan for this so we avoid this whole problem. But honestly, I am scared about the future...
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amother
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Tue, Dec 24 2024, 10:44 am
| amother Offwhite wrote: | I really think that some people have points down to an exact science. Its an art form. It requires a lot of dedication and time. But those same people also never pay full price for anything, especially not toothpaste or toilet paper. That would be a huge waste of money. It is very much not me but I know a few people like that. They know how to legally work the system. They can quote you which month of the year to buy what products and at which store and for exactly how much per unit at any given time. Its like a hobby to them or something. Most people don't know how to do that but some do. One time I figured I better use some points and I used it and those same people were horrified that I "wasted" my points on whatever because it didn't maximize my spending power. These types know which purchases to put on which credit card. You understand? So much effort goes in. They stretch every penny they earn much farther than the average person. My friends kid knows how to fly first class across the world for the price of coach tickets to Florida. (Not saying that's not luxury, but the point) I'm saying don't judge it necessarily a luxury. There is a chochma & hard work to it.
I would call it the luxury smarts of being so savvy about how to milk credit cards and purchasing power for every penny. |
Well-said. I said earlier that I think people are a little silly about it and just fooling themselves. I do think there a few who really work the system the "right" way and do benefit, but the average person using points isn't really saving money. And the ones that do it "right" are putting in time and mental energy, which imo is also worth money.
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amother
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Tue, Dec 24 2024, 10:55 am
| amother OP wrote: | But if that person is milking their cc points while owing a school or Indiana thousands of dollars, that's not something to admire.
I don't care. Use points and upgrades all you want.
But it's not ok to refuse to pay what you owe and then be busy with your vacations and points and upgrades. Rather use your points to pay back what you owe, even if it means you get less value. |
This might be long, I will share with you my personal thoughts on those points (no pun intended, sorry, that is so bad).
It doesn't affect how much Hashem provides to me.  its between them & Hashem. So if I were busy debated them to their face on ethics, you make a good point but I don't.
Also some people have so much tzaros (hidden from public view), I wouldn't judge them labeling vacation as a need, not a want.
But a more logical argument that I could hear from them is the school gives us this vacation time, they have to expect I spend money on it, staying home doing nothing isn't an option, my kids would kill each other or get into big trouble if I didn't, they expect us to pay real luxury pricing for summer camps, and I am not spending that much at all.
The same reason the schools spend so much on excitement and trips and camps do is the same reason others do it on vacation time.
You sound more like me and you might see we are in a minority mindset.
Try not to be upset by it. They aren't taking a penny from you or me. We get every cent declared for us this year on Rosh Hashana.
Children learning to do what works for them and life isn't equitable, raises them for real life, to be successful and responsible which is a good headstart if you value that.
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amother
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Tue, Dec 24 2024, 10:59 am
| amother OP wrote: | Many schools ask about vacations, ask how they were paid for.
And absolutely do expect parents to pay up their tuition balance before they go on vacations, even using points
I don't understand how it can not be actually stealing to use money that you have access to for something that's not an absolute bare bones basis need while you still owe money, especially to a Jew. |
Many people would not get the points in the first place if it weren’t earmarked for vacation. They will apply for several cards, figure out a way to spend 20 to $30,000 to meet the spending requirement for the account opening bonuses, sell some of the perks that come with the card to cover the annual fee, and spend time researching and transferring points from program to program to cover a needed vacation.
To expect them to cash out the points or redeem for Amazon gift cards (often a terrible value, by the way. Some cards give you .7 cents per point for cash or gift card but double that or more for travel redemption) is unfair. The process often involves extraordinary effort and folks will not go through the extreme effort and hassle if it will just go toward another bill.
I agree that at a certain point one needs to monetize some credit cards rewards to pay tuition rather than use them for excessive luxury travel(one year a while back we earned over $30,000 in rewards) but you’ve got to begrudge them the small hard earned vacation using points they wouldn’t have earned otherwise.
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amother
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Tue, Dec 24 2024, 11:00 am
| amother Offwhite wrote: | This might be long, I will share with you my personal thoughts on those points (no pun intended, sorry, that is so bad).
It doesn't affect how much Hashem provides to me. its between them & Hashem. So if I were busy debated them to their face on ethics, you make a good point but I don't.
Also some people have so much tzaros (hidden from public view), I wouldn't judge them labeling vacation as a need, not a want.
But a more logical argument that I could hear from them is the school gives us this vacation time, they have to expect I spend money on it, staying home doing nothing isn't an option, my kids would kill each other or get into big trouble if I didn't, they expect us to pay real luxury pricing for summer camps, and I am not spending that much at all.
The same reason the schools spend so much on excitement and trips and camps do is the same reason others do it on vacation time.
You sound more like me and you might see we are in a minority mindset.
Try not to be upset by it. They aren't taking a penny from you or me. We get every cent declared for us this year on Rosh Hashana.
Children learning to do what works for them and life isn't equitable, raises them for real life, to be successful and responsible which is a good headstart if you value that. |
Ok so maybe I have the same cheshbonos but also don’t even have the LUXURY of points.
Points isn’t a catch all for everyone who can’t afford life to go on vacation. It’s a privilege
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stillnewlywed
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Tue, Dec 24 2024, 11:01 am
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We just do cash back and apply to our monthly bill and gives us a bit extra wiggle room in our budget
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amother
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Tue, Dec 24 2024, 11:04 am
| amother Offwhite wrote: | I really think that some people have points down to an exact science. Its an art form. It requires a lot of dedication and time. But those same people also never pay full price for anything, especially not toothpaste or toilet paper. That would be a huge waste of money. It is very much not me but I know a few people like that. They know how to legally work the system. They can quote you which month of the year to buy what products and at which store and for exactly how much per unit at any given time. Its like a hobby to them or something. Most people don't know how to do that but some do. One time I figured I better use some points and I used it and those same people were horrified that I "wasted" my points on whatever because it didn't maximize my spending power. These types know which purchases to put on which credit card. You understand? So much effort goes in. They stretch every penny they earn much farther than the average person. My friends kid knows how to fly first class across the world for the price of coach tickets to Florida. (Not saying that's not luxury, but the point) I'm saying don't judge it necessarily a luxury. There is a chochma & hard work to it.
I would call it the luxury smarts of being so savvy about how to milk credit cards and purchasing power for every penny. |
This is whats known as a side gig. Some people tutor, some people have an amazon business, and sime people invest lots of energy in points. Or even a little energy- to get a few sign on bonuses that quickly add up to 1.5k. Thats real money that can have a real impact on your budget.
OPs point is its all the same money.
Many people's side gig's are for vacation, or a sheitel, or camp.....or basics. To act like "points" are different because they come in a gimmick way is gaslighting yourself (or falling for credit card marketing. Or both).
Or another way to look at it.
When you buy something on sale do you put the "savings" towards your vacation? Or towards your numerous bills? Or savings?
Points are organized "savings". Now spend as you would anyway.
Yes, points can be used to maximize a vacation. Thats amazing. But first you need to be able to afford said vacation.
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amother
Amaranthus
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Tue, Dec 24 2024, 11:16 am
| amother IndianRed wrote: | Well it's kind of silly frankly. DH and I looked into it and most of the time (except maybe some sign up bonuses, you can get the same amount in cash back anyway and spend on whatever you want-- it's not a special cheaper airline ticket). It's like when people think they get a free phone with their phone plan every couple of years but the cost is built into the monthly bill.
But yes, points are a luxury for those that can afford to spend large amounts on a cc and pay it back. |
Not at all!
We live a plane ride away from our family. Plane tickets are worth less in points than in dollar value so we pay much less for travel.
And we did go away to a really nice hotel once on points. Suites were $2k/night in cash and $500/night in points.
You must be looking at the wrong things...
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amother
Geranium
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Tue, Dec 24 2024, 11:19 am
| amother Moonstone wrote: |
To expect them to cash out the points or redeem for Amazon gift cards (often a terrible value, by the way. Some cards give you .7 cents per point for cash or gift card but double that or more for travel redemption) is unfair. The process often involves extraordinary effort and folks will not go through the extreme effort and hassle if it will just go toward another bill.
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This is exactly where I disagree with you. Yes I do expect a yashrusdik person to work just as hard to pay off money they owe as they would work toward a much needed vacation.
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amother
Mustard
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Tue, Dec 24 2024, 11:47 am
I don’t read the whole thread. Definitely agree that tuition and mortgage need to be paid before luxury points vacation.
However using pints many times carries additional benefits. When I book a flight with points I can cancel it anytime up to 24 hours before no penalty. This allows me to be flexible. Last year I took my baby to visit my grandparents out of town and my whole family got shigella . I was able to reschedule my trip without any issue or loss because of points . For that reason I always book with points instead of cc. Nothing to do with saying look I’m getting a free vacation . You have to do what’s smart and works for you financially too.
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amother
Lightgray
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Tue, Dec 24 2024, 11:57 am
We flew to Israel on points. We never could have afforded it otherwise. We did chase sign up bonuses and referral points and got super cheap precovid flight deals. Also their rewards go much further with points than cash.
It's not tone deaf or luxury to work a system to your advantage. Most of the time I also use points to buy toilet paper but we worked out the bonuses in such a way that this made more sense. Plus we saved thousands on super camp by going to Israel instead. We actually came out ahead financially.
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amother
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Tue, Dec 24 2024, 12:31 pm
| amother IndianRed wrote: | Well it's kind of silly frankly. DH and I looked into it and most of the time (except maybe some sign up bonuses, you can get the same amount in cash back anyway and spend on whatever you want-- it's not a special cheaper airline ticket). It's like when people think they get a free phone with their phone plan every couple of years but the cost is built into the monthly bill.
But yes, points are a luxury for those that can afford to spend large amounts on a cc and pay it back. |
There are many cards (Chase reserved for example) that almost double the money if used for travel. So 50k points will get you an 800 dollar flight as opposed to 500 dollars cash back.
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amother
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Tue, Dec 24 2024, 12:38 pm
| amother Tuberose wrote: | | There are many cards (Chase reserved for example) that almost double the money if used for travel. So 50k points will get you an 800 dollar flight as opposed to 500 dollars cash back. |
But if you owe me $500, if you owe the grocery or the school $500, yashrus says you use those 50k points to pay back what you owe before using it on a $800 flight. Even if that means not going to Florida for midwinter.
And if you can't afford bread or toilet paper or the electric bill, you are stupid if you choose the $800 flight vs $500 in cash.
If you choose the $800 over the $500, either you are 1) comfortable enough to make that choice 2) choosing not to live yahrusdik and not paying your debt or 3) stupid.
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Trademark
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Tue, Dec 24 2024, 12:43 pm
| amother Bottlebrush wrote: | Its not tone deaf towards you, its gaslighting to themselves.
They use points to take vacations they cant afford and excuse it as "points" instead of being responsible. |
??? Gaslighting themselves?
They can afford the vacation if they have the points. The point of points that you don't have to put the vacation in your budget if it's covered by the points.
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amother
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Tue, Dec 24 2024, 12:47 pm
| amother OP wrote: | But if you owe me $500, if you owe the grocery or the school $500, yashrus says you use those 50k points to pay back what you owe before using it on a $800 flight. Even if that means not going to Florida for midwinter.
And if you can't afford bread or toilet paper or the electric bill, you are stupid if you choose the $800 flight vs $500 in cash.
If you choose the $800 over the $500, either you are 1) comfortable enough to make that choice 2) choosing not to live yahrusdik and not paying your debt or 3) stupid. |
Can you please clarify what you mean by oweing the school? Are you referring to people not paying full tuition or to people who have committed to paying a sum less than full tuition, but they have fallen behind even on their own commitment?
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amother
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Tue, Dec 24 2024, 12:51 pm
| amother Crystal wrote: | | Can you please clarify what you mean by oweing the school? Are you referring to people not paying full tuition or to people who have committed to paying a sum less than full tuition, but they have fallen behind even on their own commitment? |
The second.
Like I said I run a service based business. Say a plumber. I provide a service, send a $500 bill. Get told that the client can't afford said bill. They try haggling down, negotiating, or even ignoring.
And then the client says they're "going to Florida on points" or "bringing the marrieds home for Yom Tov on points".
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amother
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Tue, Dec 24 2024, 12:52 pm
| amother OP wrote: | But if you owe me $500, if you owe the grocery or the school $500, yashrus says you use those 50k points to pay back what you owe before using it on a $800 flight. Even if that means not going to Florida for midwinter.
And if you can't afford bread or toilet paper or the electric bill, you are stupid if you choose the $800 flight vs $500 in cash.
If you choose the $800 over the $500, either you are 1) comfortable enough to make that choice 2) choosing not to live yahrusdik and not paying your debt or 3) stupid. |
I use it for flights for my kids in Israel. So spending the money anyway, but getting much more bang for my buck.
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amother
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Tue, Dec 24 2024, 12:54 pm
| amother OP wrote: | The second.
Like I said I run a service based business. Say a plumber. I provide a service, send a $500 bill. Get told that the client can't afford said bill. They try haggling down, negotiating, or even ignoring.
And then the client says they're "going to Florida on points" or "bringing the marrieds home for Yom Tov on points". |
Agree. You don't have to answer, but do you accept cc payments for your business? I would bet those same people would pay you by cc.
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