Toilet training - is "tough love" appropriate?

↑ cubbie ↓

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 5:17 pm

I have to say that I WAS trying for months, I started at succot, when she was 2.8 because she had two weeks off gan, so I thought it was a good time, at that point it was very hit and miss, sometimes she would go in the potty, sometimes in the toilet, sometimes she would hold in, but at the end of the two weeks she wasn't trained so went back to gan and back to wearing a diaper in the morning, then I would take it off when she came home, but she just held in until bedtime. So I gave up until chanukah when she had chofesh again and that's when I trained her. For me timing was a difficult issue, because she was showing signs of readiness at 2, but I was 7 months pregnant and (a) didn't have the energy (b) heard that 3 months before to 3 months after the birth of a sibling is not the best time to toilet train.

I really do see that every kid is different dd2 is 1 1/2 and soooo ready, I'm waiting for dd1's gan to start again to work with her, but she's not waiting for me, she's already training herself, she says "kaki, toilet" and goes to wait by the bathroom, I put her on, she does her thing! The difference is just amazing.

↑ Bambamama ↓

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 5:18 pm

Tamiri wrote:

NEVER compare the children. If you want to show your pleasure at how 4 yo cares for his/her toileting, you praise the 4 yo without EVER looking at the 3 yo. Let the 3 yo find out what makes you happy, without him having to feel bad about not doing it.

I don't think allowing 4yo DS to participate in training his little bro' is comparing them. He thinks it's fun and funny that we're praising him for doing what he's been doing for a while, and he feels important helping us train 3yo DS. And 3yo DS likes to watch his big brother make, I guess to see the mechanics of it. At this age, they usually wear their emotions on their sleeve, no? If he didn't want his brother there, I think he would voice it. I'll have to think about whether it could be making him feel bad, but I really don't think so.

Tamiri wrote:

Never bribe or overly reward for toileting. That lets the kid know how important it is to you. You want it to come from the child!

I've read from the "experts" (Dr. Phil among them) to LAVISH the praise. We did that with DS1 and it worked like a charm. He loved the attention, the treats, and the new skill he acquired... Perhaps there is more than one way...

ChossidMom ↓

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 5:37 pm

My almost 3 year old trained himself a few months gback. Thanks to my 4 year old who was also training at the time, 3 year old got very interested. He also saw us giving candies to his older sister. One day he asked to go without a diaper. I took it off and he wound up spending the day pishing all over the house. Enuf. I put it back on. A few weeks later he said "Lo rotzeh chitul" and the rest is history. He's completely trained. I'm very against "tough love" because it becomes a power struggle. My chinuch teacher says to give good prizes. If necessary you can up the ante and give really good pekelach for #2's if they are a problem. Leave them in full sight so that when the kid asks you tell him what it's for.

but, frankly, you're kid is young.... I rarely trained before 3.

I would never, never, never force such a young child to stay on the toilet.

ora_43

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 5:39 pm

Tamiri, why do you think a child would want to go to the toilet on their own? I know you're more experienced than me in this area so I assume you have a good reason, I'm just surprised because I've definitely seen cases where it's the opposite. The child is used to the diaper and wants the diaper and won't go on the toilet because it's strange. And convenience is a big factor, you have to stop playing and walk to a different room to use the toilet, but not to use the diaper (as has been mentioned). Your method seems to assume that kids will automatically want to use the toilet when they're developmentally ready--is that right?

I've met plenty of adults who (possible TMI alert) have issues going to the bathroom in a new setting--peeing in the woods, using a very different kind of toilet, using a pit instead of a toilet, etc. They manage to relax and go when they get really uncomfortable and realize that there's really no other option. Soon they see it's not so bad.

Why should it be different for kids? Maybe they also just have to see that there's no other option, there are no more diapers, only toilet. I have a relative who did this and it worked perfectly--she knew her son was ready to train, he couldn't be bothered, so she just took away all of his diapers and after a few hours of trying to hold it in and yelling for a diaper he gave up and used the toilet.

Friedasima--There may not be any developmentally normal kids out there who would make it to the chuppah in diapers if the parents let, but still. Why should the parents have to deal with buying diapers and changing diapers if the kid is perfectly capable of using the toilet? And why should kids be trained through shaming by their peers (which seems to me the only option aside from parental intervention if they're not willing to train), isn't a little "tough love" from mom and dad a friendlier option?

↑ cubbie ↓

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 5:51 pm

I think one of the big issues today with toilet training and why kids are training later and later is the convenience of the quality of disposable diapers, kids aren't uncomfortable in a wet diaper and for parents changing a diaper isn't a big deal. When my brother was a baby there were no disposable diapers and with me there were disposables, but they weren't so absorbant as today, so there were alot of leaks and a wet diaper wasn't comfortable, so my mother trained a little over one with both of us. That was the way it was done then. Today both children and parents are able to be lazy with toilet training and thus the fashion of letting the kid take the lead.

↑ daamom

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 5:59 pm

The phsycological ramifications of negative potty-training experiences I was told about (years ago - I can't remember them in detail enough to be able to be acurate here) occur in adulthood, and don't have any connection with toilet issues. Apparently, if you go for this stuff, it's personality forming to some degree. One thing I vaguely remember was backside-retention in potty-training connected to a hoarding (pack-rat) nature in adulthood.
Weird, but who knows? Maybe it's true.
I don't know if holding a child onto the toilet because they're about to spray everywhere after holding it in for hours counts, but who knows?
My son definitely had training issues. He was terrified to poop on the toilet and it took a long time untiil he would - he even got to the point where he didn't want to poop, period. I have no idea what I could've done to change it, I don't think it had anything to do with my training. He was very excited to go to the bathroom and wear underwear, like a "big boy", but for some reason he had this fear. Go figure.

↑ freidasima ↓

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 6:09 pm

I have never seen a healthy five year old child in a diaper during the day. Yes, I have seen five year old boys in diapers at night, boys seem to have urinary issues much longer than girls sometimes. But it is rare.

So how long would I wait until a kid asks? Forever. But. And this is a big thing, and some people will say "feh" in terms of tznius, I would let the kids toddle into the bathroom while I was urinating. They would see me sit on the toilet (boys are harder, they go with daddy) and I would ask them if they would like to try. We never had a potty, we had steps to go up to the toilet with the smaller seat which fits on the big one. And I would let them sit, with the diaper, and see, and I would make them get off because "it's only for big kids".

All kids want to be big kids, especially if you don't let them. This would go on for a month or two or three or four if necessary, of course not all the time but a few times a week, and without fail, each kid asked to try. I didn't make it sound easy. I explained about it (and there were no pull ups for toddlers in our day) and ultimately it always worked. Very few accidents.

I never let any kid pish on the floor. Why? What is there to teach? You pish either in the diaper if you are a baby or in the toilet. Why in real life do people exactly have to know to pish in the woods? Because it happens? But in our civilized society it isn't normal. When guys go to the army they learn to do whatever they have to do wherever they have to do it. But girls? Feh. So why teach to "let go" on the floor? So as to be able to let go anywhere? Why? We live in civilization. There are flush toilets everywhere. We don't go on camping trips in this family ever and we don't pish out of doors, almost ever. Not an issue. Very not Israeli, I know, but in that we are not very Israeli.

In any case, to hold a child, at any age, forcibly on a toilet is in my opinion abuse.
Believe me, if you think that disposable diapers cost money, find out how much an hour a week at a good shrink is these days (anywhere between 250 to 500 shekel an hour!) and don't give your kids issues that will boomerang later. Believe me. We get those too at work.

↑ Bambamama ↓

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 6:11 pm

ora_43 wrote:

And why should kids be trained through shaming by their peers (which seems to me the only option aside from parental intervention if they're not willing to train), isn't a little "tough love" from mom and dad a friendlier option?

Yes, yes. I forgot to mention this. One might say it is "abuse" to not stay on track with your child's development to the point where he will be shamed by his peers.

Now, I also don't agree with forcing your child to sit on the potty as a regular thing... I think we all can agree that is insane and abuse! In Cubbie's and my case we are talking about one instance with a child who has been holding it in for hours... and they are bursting to go, dripping urine...

↑ freidasima ↓

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 6:20 pm

The kid asks for a diaper? You think he/ she is old enough not to need one?

Buy pull ups. They are diapers that the kid has control over. The kid can also put one on him/herself, right? So keep them available for such a kid. And use the reward business for being trained but NEVER the punishment for having an accident or not being ready to.

Next step folks, remember this, is that one day you will be old and need a diaper and your kid will change it. How would you like it if you have an "accident" and your kid tells you at 80 "you could have kept it in until we got home, how could you shame me by leaking like that. I'm not giving you supper as a punishment."

That's called elder abuse. We think it is horrible.
guess what? Kids are humans too. Child abuse is just as horrible.

Those kids will change your diapers one day. Remember that when you force them to do something having to do with toilet training.

↑ Bambamama ↓

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 6:25 pm

cubbie wrote:

Yes, I just read an interesting article. Even when washing machines came out and the age for potty training was pushed later, 90% of kids were trained by age 2 in the US. It was when disposable diapers came out and experts like T. Berry Brazelton were PAID as spokesmen to say, "Dont rush your kids"... that kids were trained later and later... and the disposable diaper companies did very nicely for themselves.... I'm not saying one should rush their kid... but interesting how the potty-training age became later and later.....

↑ Bambamama ↓

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 6:34 pm

freidasima wrote:

Next step folks, remember this, is that one day you will be old and need a diaper and your kid will change it. How would you like it if you have an "accident" and your kid tells you at 80 "you could have kept it in until we got home, how could you shame me by leaking like that. I'm not giving you supper as a punishment."

That's called elder abuse. We think it is horrible.
guess what? Kids are humans too. Child abuse is just as horrible.

Oh my gosh... this is getting weird. Who is talking about shaming a child like that? If my child has an accident, I am very nonchalant about it... I would assume anyone with a heart would not make their child feel bad for an accident... Are you talking about that other thread??

Last edited by Bambamama on Tue, Oct 21 2008, 6:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ cubbie ↓

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 6:35 pm

freidasima wrote:

Nobody has mentioned telling a kid off or punishing for having an accident that is a different issue and something that I have NEVER done and I agree is not positive toilet training. Like I said I believe that a kid who holds in for hours on end, needs to get to the stage of just releasing out of a diaper and I am not the one who has an issue with it being on the floor, each time I cleaned it up and washed and changed my dd and said to her, "that's ok, sometimes I don't get to the toilet in time too" she was never made to feel bad about it, in fact she started to enjoy going on the floor and thought it was fun!
As for pull ups they are a big waste of money for a kid who isn't daytime trained - they are very expensive compared to regular diapers (which dd was able to take off and put on herself anyway) I bought them once and dd just felt she had prettier diapers.

Marion

Wed, Oct 22 2008, 2:38 am

I think reward and punishment is not such a bad thing. We have 2 charts going right now; one for staying dry overnight/during naps (which he does anyway, I just thought it would make him feel good to get a sticker for it), and one for using the toilet/potty rather than just going in his trousers. We KNOW he can stay dry, and we KNOW he knows how to use the potty/toilet. We also know that he's testing us, because he stays dry for hours on end until he's bursting, and then he has an "accident" to see what we'll do about it. While I have no problem cleaning up and saying we'll try harder next time to get to the toilet in time, I also have no problem withholding cake (or some other treat that in our house anyway only big boys get). The idea of course being that if he's big enough for cake (etc.) then he's big enough to remember to use the toilet instead of the floor.

↑ Tamiri ↓

Wed, Oct 22 2008, 3:13 am

ora_43 wrote:

I can't even remember Ora. Between the training of each child, I forgot what we did. What I do know is that we start talking toilet-talk very early on. The kids know what goes on there. At some point, they don't like BMs in their diaper. So I guess I make the connection of making in the toilet = less discomfort. I think I try to start the training when *I* get sick of the diapers, but if it doesn't work within 3 days, even with occasional incentives, it means the child is not ready, in my mind. That's what happened with Micha, the only one I can remember at this point. When we saw it's not working and we are cleaning up too many puddles on the floor and having too many wet pants - the diaper went back on IIRC, for another 3 weeks or so. After that, *poof*, he was trained.
I just know that later in life, there are so, so, so many issues that are going to crop up and lead to arguments, that I don't want the stress so early in their lives. I did not feel this way with my first: he was the one we did everything wrong with, of course.
The things I am willing to "power struggle" with a 4 yo are: bad behavior, not going to sleep nicely and bad language. Other than that, I don't think there is very much I will fight him for.

greentiger ↓

Wed, Oct 22 2008, 3:21 am

Everyone talks about the negative emotional impact forcing a kid to train has, but has anyone considered for a moment the other side? What kind of impact does it have on an independant 3-4 year old when all his friends are trained and he is still in diapers? What do you think a kid at that age feels like when asked to leave the room because he stinks? How capable do you think he will feel and how much trust is he going to put in him self if his own parents don't give him the message that he is ready and able to make on the toilet?

↑ Tamiri ↓

Wed, Oct 22 2008, 3:24 am

greentiger wrote:

All parents should start giving the message, and TRY to train by about 2.5. My theory is that if the kid is ready, it will work. If the kid fights it, back off and try again later. I did have one of mine trained at 2.5. Hmm... maybe 2 of them.