Confessions of a nonpayer S/O tuition thread

amother

↑ Hydrangea ↓

Yesterday at 8:44 am

amother Cantaloupe wrote:

The biggest expense difference by far since the 70s and 80s is housing and it affects everyone across the board. When I was married we were told housing should cost 20% of income. We lived in a 4 bedroom apartment in Boro Park for years with a price tag of 800 a month. Now housing is about 60% with the leftover being split between all other expenses. Add in the gashmiyus boom, fueled hugely by the schools and you found your culprit. Family size has nothing to do with it.

I don't agree with this. Housing went up tremendously, but so did other expenses. We own a house from years ago and our mortgage is not high. I had always assumed that at this stage of life we would be better able to manage financially, but EVERYTHING went up, even doubled! My property taxes, food, utilities, health insurance, car insurance, everything! People's income did not go up at the same pace.

amother

Outerspace ↓

Yesterday at 8:53 am

Im a playgroup Morah in Lakewood from 9:15-2:45.
I need to still pay transportation costs.

Bais Faiga, you can drop off at 8:50. Good luck getting from Bais Faiga to Westgate or Chateau or Lakewood Commons in 25 minutes by 9:15. Parents do not appreciate a Morah who is always late
Fridays at 11:15.
Picking up my primary son at 1:45.
Picking up my high school girl from midterms

It's not possible so yeah, I pay the LSTA the $250 or whatever per kid and daven that the routes get picked up.

If it stops paying transportation, makes a playgroup and drives, she'll be running around constantly, paying subs. And sub costs more than transportation

amother

↑ DarkViolet ↓

Yesterday at 9:08 am

amother Hydrangea wrote:

I'm talking about the yeshiva/bais yaakov system. How do you see it being built on the support of others? There is a LOT more money floating around in 2024 than there was in the 1950's, trust me.
And of course it's sustainable, in some way, shape or form until Moshiach comes. Nothing that's worthwhile comes easily, but iyh we will manage.

If the system that's the schools are built into isn't sustainable, everything is impacted including the schools. The schools collect funds for the community and if the community collapses, so do all institutions within.

And no, there isn't much more money floating around when you compare in full context. You cant look at the total numbers with blinders, without looking at the full picture.

What is a fact that in the 1960-80 era, the average family was able to pay their life expenses with 1-2 weeks income and save the rest. Now we don't even make it paycheck to paycheck.

amother

↑ Hydrangea ↓

Yesterday at 9:26 am

amother DarkViolet wrote:

I have no idea which system you're talking about that's not sustainable, we must be talking about very different things. Am yisroel is sustainable, we have Hashems promise.

And I have no idea what your talking about that people were doing so well then. In the 1950's our community was comprised of immigrants and Holocaust survivors- who had money?

amother

Darkblue

Yesterday at 9:29 am

amother DarkViolet wrote:

The average family didn't have cleaning help, buy takeout, buy expensive clothing and accessories, send to expensive camps, and do all the other "necessities" that we need to do today. Simchas weren't ostentatious. People didn't support adult children so they can learn for years on end. There are many issues and high tuition is just one of them. But go look at how many ppl say all these luxuries are necessities and then wonder why ppl can't afford tuition ...

amother

↑ Oatmeal

Yesterday at 9:37 am

amother Darkblue wrote:

All true.
But go back to the original post. None of this applies to the OP. Two f/t working parents with no extras. Bringing in less than they're spending anyhow, and unable to afford tuition for their kids.

amother

↑ DarkViolet ↓

Yesterday at 9:43 am

amother Hydrangea wrote:

It's the man-made system that we have set up. We arent exactly following Torah guidelines..

We don't teach our boys a trade/parnossoh skills.

Newlyweds start life with no financial stability.

Kollel en masse for society.

We cram together in neighborhoods, instead of moving out, raising housing costs to astronomical levels.

Simchas are bank breaking events.

Crazy lifestyles.

Etc.

So it works in the beginning. Then cracks start to happen, and slowly get larger and larger. Inflation just caused everything to give way.

As for historical. The 1950s were indeed the years that the survivors reset themselves. To note, there wasn't kollel en masse for society and men were expected to bring in parnossoh from the start of marriage.

The 1960s had things stabilize, followed by the 1970s-80s, where life flowed smoothly. Income and expense ratio was in a good place and society flourished.

Then the expenses started rising, kollel for the masses became a must, standards were upped, and struggles started to rear its head. Salaries didn't keep pace and supporting newlyweds became a demand.

That set the stage for a downward spiral. Slowly, slowly more and more folks began falling into a financial hole. And it got worse with each passing year. There is only so much money in a community, and it isn't impossible for a community to support all of its members.

So here we are, where Inflation put the nail in the coffin and people just don't have money for even basics.

amother

↑ DarkViolet

Yesterday at 9:47 am

amother Darkblue wrote:

True - all this falls into the unsustainable system we have set up. Forget about these 'smaller' expenses, such as camp and takeout. The weddings are outrageous. The expectations we set forth for a chosson, kallah are ridiculous. $20-30k worth of gifts? That alone can pay tuition for a good few years.

We have so many societal constructs that are killing us. Fixing the small stuff will only make a small dent. We need a major overhaul.

amother

Lightcoral ↓

Yesterday at 10:19 am

amother Pansy wrote:

I think you need to be firmer with the schools you are paying and negotiate the tuition down. Perhaps your Rov could advocate for you. A school can’t demand money you literally don’t have when you and your husband are living in a shoestring budget and each working full time.

I think there are a lot of people prioritizing lifestyle over tuition. The hundred eateries in Lakewood dozens of high priced clothing stores and newish car leases, all catering mostly to the middle class is evidence of that.

You are clearly not one of them. Schools should look elsewhere when trying to get parents to prioritize tuition and cut you some slack.

Yes, this is one side of the coin.

The other side is that if too many families are in this matzev, the rebbe's and morah's aren't paid. If that c'vs happens the school needs to close. Then these families have to come to a brand new school and ask to e let in while saying they can't really pay tuition. It's a bad situation.

amother

Seablue ↓

Yesterday at 10:24 am

amother DarkViolet wrote:

I was a kid in the 1980s. You can't compare the standard of living then to now. Just one example, so many people on various threads have stated that eating pasta for dinner as the main dish is not acceptable, they/their husband must have meat or chicken to feel satisfied. Well, I grew up eating pasta at least 3x a week, chicken maybe 2x (and one of those times was on Shabbos), meat was reserved for one of the meals on YT. Most people's cars were old jalopies that were always on the verge of breaking down. (I remember one car we had which would stall whenever you stopped at a red light. It was super stressful for me as a kid, I can't imagine what it was like for my mother driving our carpool.) Etc. My family wasn't "poor" either, my father had a decent job, this was the reality for a large chunk of frum families back then.

amother

Jasmine ↓

Yesterday at 10:28 am

amother Hydrangea wrote:

It's been sustainable for 70+ years and suddenly in 2024 its not sustainable? Do you really believe that?

It is a fact. Numbers can prove it. My grandfather paid 400$ a month on his mortgage and earned 500$ a week. My mortgage is 7,000$ and together we earn 10,400$. (Hoping to refinance) if things would be even I would be earning at least 24,000$ a month. And I wouldn’t even be rich. Maybe a bit comfortable. And my grandfather wasn’t rich either.

If you do a little research you will find this phenomenon all over. It is significantly more expensive to have kids than it used to be

amother

↑ Lightcoral ↓

Yesterday at 10:33 am

amother NeonGreen wrote:

I'm still stuck on the part where people actually think that their jobs sustains them and their families.
I think I learned in school (not sure how much tuition cost then) that Hashem is the one that sustains all mankind and even the ant that is building tunnels in the sand. Hashem provides food for the cat that is homeless and for the toad in the pond. None of them hold down jobs or are on birth control.

A person can have all the money in the world and die of hunger. He is not being sustained by his money, he is being sustained by Hashem. At a certain time in history people burned their $100.00 bills to use as fuel because there was no other heating option.
Let's circle back to the real source of all our income, of all our sustenance. It's impossible to sustain yourselves from all these outside things. And if it does happen, it's because Hashem conceals himself within those parameters, not because it's actually a source of sustenance.

This is not an old fashioned concept, it's very much alive these days as it was from the beginning of time.
Unless of course you are transferring your belief from Hashem and putting it onto your jobs/incomes.
Then of course you are confining yourself.

Op, don't let yourself get hurt or change your view in life by the naysayers here.
May Hashem bring lots of shefa into your life and may you enjoy lots of nachas from all of your
children!

I'm not sure what to make of the bolded. Do we really see this? When a rosh yeshiva from Bnei Brak needs to raise funds, he shleps to Los Angeles, NY, Chicago, and Toronto to visit the wealthy. Hashem can't provide the yeshiva the money by staying in EY? Can't the same hashem that created rich donors in Chicago provide rich donors in Meah Shearim?

And why does every yeshiva have parents sign a tuition contract? What are they worried about? Hashem will get them the money they need whether the parents pay or not, right?

Did you notice that hashem set up the world al pi teva? Doctors, lawyers and accountants, make more than waiters, secretaries and rebbeim. Why is this so? It's because hashem put teva into the world. Hashem made summer hot and winter cold. It's not random. He could just as easily make snow storms in July. But he doesn't. And he also created a system that people with better jobs usually have more money. This doesn't mean it's not from hashem. It just means hashem runs the world in a certain way where our effort has a big impact.

Would you take a new job in a school that hasn't paid its staff in 2 years? Why not? The same hashem that made the others schools pay their staff on time can do the same with this school. But this school unfortunately has a parent body that doesn't have wealthy families. They don't have wealthy donors. And so al pi teva they struggle. So you wouldn't say that it comes from hashem and he'll make sure you get paid. You'd consider the teva and stay away.